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      CommentAuthorrazrangel
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2010
     (8397.101)
    Hush and eat your Soylent Greens. }:>
  1.  (8397.102)
    I have to finish my SPAM first!
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      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2010
     (8397.103)
    I would think KK had to expect some ill coming to her at some point because of the bike: Luke hates choppers, and not just because they're noisy. He says it quite plainly at the beginning of Volume Four. (I just got my TPB today, so I noticed that bit right away.)

    Of course, asking KK to remember his exact words six years on is probably a bit of a stretch, but just having the thing was a constant point of irritation for Luke, obviously. While I don't think it warrant shooting her out of the sky while she was riding it, KK knows Luke doesn't like it. Call it passive-aggressive, willfully doing something she knows bothers Luke.

    Again, not saying it warrants shooting her down. Just saying she had to expect something one day.
  2.  (8397.104)
    @rickiep00h

    "asking KK to remember his exact words six years on is probably a bit of a stretch"

    ...especially since she wasn't in the room at the time.

    Shooting down KK wasn't just strategically stupid and arrogant, it was suicidal. KK was basically admitting to Connor that she was going to vote to keep Luke alive. He shot down the one person who might have cast the deciding vote to spare him! Luke is good at criticizing the group, but he's blind to his own mistakes.

    As for KK... she's probably the most popular among the other FA. It was her voice that turned the tide of opinion in BOOK TWO, to convince them to expand their population. She can do what he can't: persuade and change opinions. And she does it without using fancy five-dollar words or even a trace of condescension. THAT'S why he hates her.

    ...and the bike is COOL.
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      CommentAuthor~lis
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2010
     (8397.105)
    i keep seeing people here reffering that the 12 freakangels being together in the future for whatever reasons would be more hell than heaven. wait. who says it's supposed to be heaven at all? sounds like many people take it for granted. they're not even angels, actually. :}

    btw, a thought just came to me: Arkady warned Luke that she'd give him more overdose, if he tries his mind-dominating sexually-assaulting games again. not only did he try, he succeeded, too. did she forget?

    @longtimelurker: interesting theory, thanks for sharing. :}
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      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2010
     (8397.106)
    ...especially since she wasn't in the room at the time.
    Yes, because Mark obviously couldn't hear Luke in the next room, either.

    My point still stands, for six years (probably more) they've been antagonizing each other, and it's now turned particularly violent. While this particular bit of foreshadowing might not work exactly as I intended it so for my thesis, at some point someone was going to come unglued, and it's not surprising it's the one with the squidgiest morals.
    She can do what he can't: persuade and change opinions. ... THAT'S why he hates her.
    Or it's because she's more willing to whack a bloke with a chair than to listen to what he actually has to say. Physically removing the opponent is not the same as winning an argument. It's a pity how many people think it is, though.
    And she does it without using fancy five-dollar words--
    What's wrong with using one's vocabulary?
    --or even a trace of condescension.
    Oh, right. But those are two different things, using a big vocabulary and being condescending.
    ...and the bike is COOL.
    I'll gladly concede this point. But the bike's being cool is no more support for whacking Luke in the head with a chair than... anything. I think music is pretty cool, I'm not going to whack someone with a chair because they don't agree.
  3.  (8397.107)
    I think music is pretty cool, I'm not going to whack someone with a chair because they don't agree.

    Why do people think this is an argument for anything?

    I like people, but I certainly wouldn't eat one, SO JEFFERY DAHMER DOESN'T EXIST.
    • CommentAuthortallguyPA63
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2010 edited
     (8397.108)
    So today I learned eating a salad may be eating my long lost uncle and, if I hit a person on the head with a chair, I need have to have more of a reason than, say...

    that person shot me out of the sky, I fell across a roof, I fell from the roof, I was saved by a freaky bald chick that transported me in to the river, I got my head cracked open, and the jerk-off that did it is something of a zombie, and is on a rant that (even though interesting) has nothing to do with him sooting a gun at me?

    Sorry man, a cigar is a cigar, she clocked the bastard for good merit and I loved it.
    I still don't want the salad.
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      CommentAuthorrickiep00h
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2010
     (8397.109)
    I like bacon, and I'll beat the shit out of anyone that doesn't.

    I was trying to point out that there's a lot of gray area in the morals in some/most of the the Angels' behavior, and I happen to think that KK is no more a hero than Luke is a villain.

    Anyway, I'm going to shut up. Not trying to get in a fight with the Landlord here.
    • CommentAuthorMandrakk
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2010
     (8397.110)
    @rickiep00h:Interesting points mate,and i must say that I share the ones on the Vocabulary as well as your first point,however,I disagree with you on KK and the chair thing:a guy would have shot me outta the sky knocking him out with a bloody chair is the least I would do.I mean I hear your argument about passive agressivity and KK knowing Luke hates choppers,but still shooting is a bit too much.Now concerning Luke,true the guy is a dick,however i do not think he was one that much at the beginning:I think the way the other freakangels treat him has a lot to do with what he currently is:If they had treated him differently he would not be behaving like that,sure he would still be a prick,but not THAT much,in fact I kinda like Luke.At least he is not an Hypocrite like some of the others...
  4.  (8397.111)
    Oye. None of them appear to be anywhere near growing up, do they?

    Go KK and Kaitlin? Gimme a break. There are so many ways of succumbing to weakness, and we always privilege the male sexual antagonist as being the worst of the worst. Sure, Luke may be a wanker, but we should put things in perspective.

    The chair-wielding, nutcracking heroines of episode 100, for instance. How can we examine KK's invitation to all of us to enter the world of the Freakangels? She didn't exactly give the impression that she had or would take good emotional care of her partner in the first panels, did she? (and didn't resist the rampant traces of racism that the others happily used to mock her...) Was the "poor boy" consenting? Probably. But nature kinda swayed things in her favor there, didn't they?

    It's so easy for us to simplify victimization and power but the dynamics are incredibly complex and problematic. How many times have we witnessed the withholding of basic needs or worse resulting in total misery for men and women alike in the world?--KK's aloof flaunting of her assets around Whitechapel or Kait's little playpen are just what they're supposed to be, just what myth has always been: allegorical ways for us to recognize in the extreme what we play out in the ordinary.

    I love the bruising on Luke throughout the last two episodes. And the matte eyes are strangely disturbing across the board. Totally brilliant. I'm looking forward to the unfolding of their dimensions... if I can sit through it without making effigies of them to spank. (see? we're all susceptible...) but really. They all deserve it.
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      CommentAuthor~lis
    • CommentTimeJun 14th 2010
     (8397.112)
    Kait is the worst antagonist so far, according to me, because she thinks she's some embodyment of justice and righteousness and all methods of achieving them are allowed to her. that's a bomb ticking. Luke, Karl, Kirk, Mark and KK at least don't claim to be doing it for the well-being of people.
    none of those who "brought justice" are good enough to be justified in their actions. the angels act like everyday people, they're not perfectly logical and all-forgiving do-gooders. they don't get what they deserve, they get what they can seize at the moment.
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      CommentAuthorphorgan1
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2010
     (8397.113)
    @Mandrackk - saying that Luke is the product of how he's been treated, while not necessarily wrong, makes him a victim, i.e. someone who is not in charge of their own life, someone who doesn't take responsibility of his own life. I can tell you that while it is a common psychological phenomenon, our society doesn't allow it as an excuse for anything. He needs to man up and start making his own decisions and being willing to take the consequences. That's what convinces me that you're right. He's completely unwilling to to take responsibility. To him, everything just happens to him and he doesn't understand why things keep going wrong. That's the hallmark of a victimized human being, someone that was taught at cost that his inputs aren't effective, and predictably, he victimizes others.
    @Warren, do you have a psychology degree? This is bizarre, subtle, and obvious, all at once. Most people don't get this.
  5.  (8397.114)
    @Mandrackk: The fact that the other 'angels treat Luke doesn't really justify his behavior. I mean, someone doesn't just become a rapist because their friends hit them a lot. It just doesn't make sense. Plus, he *has* been a dick from the beginning. His (ex) girlfriend didn't kick him out for no reason at all. Janine kicked him out because he was a wanker and he deserved it. He's shown from the beginning that he doesn't have a problem with using his package for his own self-serving purposes, no matter how bad they may be.

    Personally, I think that KK was right to deck him with the chair. If not because of her bike, then because he's arse in general, and he deserves to get a good smack now and again. And again. ...And again. ...And again.
    • CommentAuthordorki
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2010
     (8397.115)
    Agreed with ~lis in "Kait is the worst antagonist so far...embodiment of justice and righteousness". If the mind of a freakangel maps to anything like a normal human, history has amply shown us that many of the monumental injustices to civilization has been at the hands of zealous persons in pursuit of their view of justice and righteousness.
    Also about Luke, he may be not just a wanker but at the start of being a serial sexual predator. In human society, it seems that these predators have almost no likelihood truly reforming. For the case of humans maybe brain research can someday help - but possibly the Luke 20-30 into the future has it all figured out.
    • CommentAuthorMandrakk
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2010
     (8397.116)
    @Phorgan and valeriaverstone:I am not saying Luke is a victim,because it is not the case,the guy is real dick,so yes other people having problems with him is understandable,however,the way the other angels treat him is just making him worse,for instance let's take the Janine incident,which is a very good exemple:she kicked him out without even leaving him a set of pants,so true he might have deserved that,but in his reasoning using the package to get his stuff back and to get back to janine is justified,but still the others intervene in a matter that frankly is personnal busyness,Arkady even saying that they might have killed him for it and attacking him,so in dickhead reasonning it gives this:"they are always on me even when I do nothing,well then I will fucking show them"add to that how Kirk treats him as well as the others well that gives him a lot of reasons to get worse,also IMHO Kait,Sirkka and KK are worse than Luke because they are hypocrites.
  6.  (8397.117)
    @Mandrakk: The thing is, the rest of the 'angels do have a good reason for constantly getting on Luke's case. There are certain rules that the 'angels have laid out, and Luke isn't following them. These are the same rules that Mark was kicked out for breaking. Arkady says so herself in Episode 11. The 'angels aren't being hypocrites or intervening in "personal business" here, they're following the rules that the 12 of them had set down originally. If he can't follow the rules of the 'angels, then he has to accept the consequences; he can't expect them to treat him well after everything he's done.
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      CommentAuthor~lis
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2010
     (8397.118)
    i'm missing something here. why are Sirka and KK considered hypocrites by so many people?
    • CommentAuthorFan
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2010
     (8397.119)
    > If he can't follow the rules of the 'angels, then he has to accept the consequences; he can't expect them to treat him well after everything he's done.

    Punishing someone doesn't necessarily bring about in them the behaviour which you'd like (perhaps especially a family member); IMO they shouldn't expect him to treat them well after everything they've done.
  7.  (8397.120)
    @~lis: the trouble with Sirkka and KK is not that they're hypocrites, in my opinion. But they do use sex as power, and haven't demonstrated as much consciousness around the issues that arise around this as I, for one, would like to see. Sirkka's referring to "her people" and "her boys and girls"--the whole harem thing. I'm sure none of "her children" feel mistreated...but there's a lot more going on than just peace and love when you take someone with one kind of power and make sexual subordinates out of the less powerful.

    Most of them, to their credit, are doing what they can to make the world they think they broke, better. Each has a legacy of great talent and potential that has been misunderstood at best and persecuted violently at worst their whole lives. We haven't gotten the particulars of their childhoods, but we've learned that all of them were abandoned and rejected by the non-Angel networks that are traditionally responsible for socialization.

    It's a bloody miracle any of them managed to school their tendencies into technical, useful skills, or, like Mikki and to some extent Sirkka, have become healers. I think Arkady and Connor would qualify here, and Caz, KK and Karl certainly turn their acumen to the active benefit of society. Jack and Kirk are doing their part, in their anti-social way, while Mark and Luke have not quite grown beyond the Nietzschian superman complex. It's a lesser state, but interesting in its manifestations.

    (apologies to those who have been in the forum from the beginning, for the points others have made that I'm making redundant. I haven't taken the time to go back and plumb for the existing wisdom...feel free to tell me to sod off.)