Whitechapel - Superheroes 'poor role models for boys'

Whitechapel - Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' Sun, 19 May 2013 03:42:38 -0700 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.4 & Feed Publisher Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255377#Comment_255377 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255377#Comment_255377 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 16:46:21 -0700 Foamhead
Superheroes 'poor role models for boys'

Sorry if this has been posted already; I looked but couldn't see it. ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255380#Comment_255380 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255380#Comment_255380 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 16:52:49 -0700 oldhat

]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255382#Comment_255382 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255382#Comment_255382 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 17:13:21 -0700 Fishelle This is kind of a stupid article. ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255383#Comment_255383 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255383#Comment_255383 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 17:22:47 -0700 JP Carpenter She doesn't like Iron Man.

Aside from my initial 'oh fuck off' reaction, and sniggering about 'The Boys', it does raise some intriguing questions.

Are superheroes meant to be role models? Should they be? What makes a good role model anyhow? Should there be some sort of 'approved role model' logo put on fictional characters? Would there have to be some sort of committee of the great and good to decide what or who gets to be a role model? Is there any reason why boys can't discern for themselves what are appropriate characteristics to model?

I never saw superheroes as role models, never trusted the smarmy spandex clad bastards, but then I can't think who my role models actually were... ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255434#Comment_255434 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255434#Comment_255434 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:12:10 -0700 Stargrave Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255437#Comment_255437 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255437#Comment_255437 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:17:01 -0700 D.J. Professor Lamb says superheroes like Iron Man 'exploit women, flaunt bling and convey their manhood with high-powered guns'.
How is this being a bad role model? ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255453#Comment_255453 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255453#Comment_255453 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 05:02:49 -0700 Audley Strange
"Helping boys resist these behaviours early on seems to be a critical step toward improving their health and the quality of their social relationships"

Does this sort of soft science horseshit concern anyone else? ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255454#Comment_255454 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255454#Comment_255454 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 05:18:26 -0700 government spy
Like Tony Stark's behavior was a result of having so much power that he couldn't sustain a fufilling long-term relationship with a woman, he hid inside his armor, almost always refused to delegate responsibility (except to War Machine rarely) and drove himself to drink because of the amount of stress he put himself through alone, and kept himself so isolated. That's not a character that they're trying to make a role model; he's a lesson to learn by.

And Supes was never a realistic character to begin with. Who was it that said he was an alien who created Clark Kent to be a reflection of how Kal-El saw us? Weak, cowardly and pathetic?

What was it Charles Barkely said..?

I'm not a role model... Just because I dunk a basketball doesn't mean I should raise your kids.

I mean, obviously comics aren't basketball, but they shouldn't be looked at any more severely than television's impact on our kids. I'd much rather have my child reading a comic than watching American Idol. I think she'd get the wrong idea about role models watching stupid unoriginal people try to sing like stupid famous people... But that's me. ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255457#Comment_255457 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255457#Comment_255457 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 05:52:47 -0700 keyofsilence Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255460#Comment_255460 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255460#Comment_255460 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 05:59:49 -0700 government spy Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255463#Comment_255463 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255463#Comment_255463 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:13:31 -0700 mister hex Who was it that said he was an alien who created Clark Kent to be a reflection of how Kal-El saw us? Weak, cowardly and pathetic?

It was David Carradine in KILL BILL Volume 2, that's who.

Spider-Man is a hell of a role model. "With great power comes great responsibility" and all that. Iron Man, on the other hand, is the most dangerous drunk driver of all time.

These people aren't "scientists", they're "scientitions". ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255472#Comment_255472 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255472#Comment_255472 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:28:50 -0700 Solario
"Boys could look up to and learn from comic book heroes of the past because outside of their costumes, they were "real people with real problems and many vulnerabilities".
This. This I don't understand at all. I would argue, that superheroes are far better at being depicted as rich and complex characters today, than they were in the past. Unless she thinks that a character trait is having a bum leg (to steal from Alan Moore).

""He found that being able to resist macho images - especially aggression and autonomy - declines as boys transition into adolescence and this decline puts their mental health at risk."
Autonomy? That's amazing cynical. It makes it sound as if the study wants us to raise an entire generation of feeble willed individuals, because a weak will and no intelligence is the path to happiness.

I'll throw down the gauntlet - I think Morrison's All-Star Superman is one of the strongest rolemodels, male or female, I've ever encountered in fiction. He's caring, empathic, righteous, self-disciplined, contemplative, intelligent and willing to do what he believes to be the right thing. Plus, he's fictional, so there's very little chance of him doing anything even remotely harmful. ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255474#Comment_255474 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255474#Comment_255474 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:43:40 -0700 kperkins Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255511#Comment_255511 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255511#Comment_255511 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:56:24 -0700 caanan
I'd rather read a comic. ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255512#Comment_255512 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255512#Comment_255512 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:00:32 -0700 johnjones Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255513#Comment_255513 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255513#Comment_255513 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:01:23 -0700 government spy Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255528#Comment_255528 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255528#Comment_255528 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:13:01 -0700 joe.distort
but not that terrible Spider Man. HES A MENACE! ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255538#Comment_255538 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255538#Comment_255538 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:01:29 -0700 oldhat
But the point of it was that even when they lost their powers, they managed to overcome the evil forces anyways, which showed that yes, even regular humans, with enough determination, can get shit done. And at the end of their adventures they found that they still had to go back to their flawed lives. They know at some point that they have to fix it all, but they hold off on it. I sort of took solace in the thought that they were pretty much like me at the stage I was at. Angry that the world works the way it does, that people act a certain way and wondering where the line between good and bad is...that was me. And knowing that those issues plagued the mind of even the mightiest of heroes brought a little comfort to me.

Sometimes kids need a "role model" who admits he or she is just as confused about things as you are. After all, how many times did we think things would be easier and it would be all figured out when we grew up? ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255546#Comment_255546 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255546#Comment_255546 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:32:54 -0700 Cat Vincent Jeremiah called Man of Iron, Woman Under Glass, where a young man growing up in post-apocalypse America models himself on his hero Captain Iron. Iron's hero-speech goes:

I am Captain Iron and I will use my powers only for good, never for evil. I will fight injustice wherever I find it. I will help those who cannot help themselves. I am a spirit of justice and I am a spirit of vengeance and I will kick the ass of the unrighteous. I will be gentle, for the world is hard, and I will be caring, for the world is harsh, and I will be strong and I will endure pain and I will die bravely and I will make it all better again, so that the children will never have to look up in pain and wonder why they lost so much. Why so many had to die. Why they are still even alive because
[pauses]
...because no one should ever have to ask that question.

I have heard far worse bases for a moral foundation.

There's a great bit (can't find the exact quote) where his sister describes how he learned his sense of moral justice from the comic and, though the result is tragic, the implication is that the meme of superhero morality thrives, even there. ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255550#Comment_255550 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255550#Comment_255550 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:01:19 -0700 longtimelurker
IRON MAN
INCREDIBLE HULK
WANTED
HANCOCK
HELLBOY II: THE GOLDEN ARMY
DARK KNIGHT
PUNISHER 2
THE SPIRIT
X-MEN ORIGINS: WOLVERINE
WATCHMEN
KICK-ASS
IRON MAN 2
JONAH HEX

Quite a number of antiheroes on that list. Even Batman breaks bones and scars faces in his film. Not a lot of sensitivity, either. I mean, you would almost think these films were made for grown-ups and not kids...! ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255600#Comment_255600 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255600#Comment_255600 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:38:12 -0700 trini_naenae
I find the entire concept of superheros as role models to be a bit generalized and problematic. Which ones are we talking about? What age group are we talking about? Are the kids reading comics intended for kids or for adults? And so on. One would not give Dark Knight Returns to a 6 year old, etc.

Looking at a lot of the movies listed by longtimelurker, I would guess that most of them are rated PG-13, as in not intended for kids anyway. The intended audience matters.

edit to make clearer. ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255609#Comment_255609 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255609#Comment_255609 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:28:21 -0700 Rootfireember Just because you have a psych degree doesn't mean you're impervious to engaging in Bad Science. Anyone can pick and choose evidence for any theory, and twist data to make sure it's correct.
The ages 4-18 is a rather large age range, and what's appropriate for a 4 year old isn't necessarily the same thing that's fine and dandy for an 18 year old man! The fact that the study's author is indicating that 4 year olds and 18 year olds share the same needs in a role model, tastes, etc is gross over-generalization, and not backed by science. I'm also wondering how many four year olds are out there reading comics and watching pg-13 and rated r movies...as a Psychologist she should damn well know that a 4 year old and an 18 year old have different mental abilities, ways of understanding the world, as well as socially acceptable (or not) choices in media; and at 18, I think a person can damn well read what they want. The whole macho image thing isn't just a comics thing- it's verymuch a part of American society, esp. with older generations!

We also don't know that her study was accepted by the APA after peer review; only that she mentioned it at a meeting, or how her study's participants were found (I suspect bias is involved).

BAD psychologist, Bad, bad! The Professor needs to go back to school and learn some science, not just pandering to a media looking for the next thing to get people's attention! >:P ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255620#Comment_255620 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255620#Comment_255620 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:46:03 -0700 razrangel
1. "Role Models" What I can tell you about role models is that one can't really pick to be a role model or not. No one knows who a particular kid is going to idolize/emulate/take as a cautionary tale. Furthermore, no one can really avoid being called a role model if another adult feels there are children watching them. It just sorta happens when in proximity to kids by virtue of living within society. But it's been my observation (and my experience) that a person gets called a role model usually as a normalizing measure "You have to be a good example! kids are watching!" Trust me, no matter how much a person thrashes around whining about not picking to be a role model and not wanting the job (a) there's no telling what kids are picking up taking with them and (b) the forces trying to enforce a certain behavior on that person aren't going to let up.

2. "Superheroes" I don't know if Prof Lamb or anyone else conducting these studies read up on superhero archetypes but I don't even understand approaching comics from a psychological stand point and not even reference Jung. Archetypes, even heroic ones, aren't necessarily developed to save us from ourselves, they - at least the good/solid ones - explain us to ourselves. If superheroes are a role models it's a mistake to assume to that they were put in place to be models for children as opposed to being models for adults. That is, archetypes are built upon by the creators as characters they want to see come to life. Then the fanbase follows them, for good or ill, as closely or distantly as a given fan cares to. Whether its Heracles or Sir Lancelot or Tony Stark, fans dig them because of something in themselves that resonates in the fictional character. To talk about them like they are monoliths imposed on the frail minds of the young is to completely miss why we indulge fiction in the first place.

My pseudo-psychological manifesto in 500 words or less. ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255653#Comment_255653 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255653#Comment_255653 Tue, 17 Aug 2010 05:53:44 -0700 Mister Andersen
The last time we saw Clark Kent (Smallville), he was lying douche bag whose constant abuse of his friendship with Lex is arguably partly responsible for his friend's descent into evil, an attitude for which I am not aware of his ever having displayed any sort of awareness.

OTOH, Tony is fully aware that he's a dick and has done tremendous wrong in the past, things for which he is attempting his emotionally crippled best to make up for. ]]> Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255654#Comment_255654 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255654#Comment_255654 Tue, 17 Aug 2010 05:54:32 -0700 Cat Vincent Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255655#Comment_255655 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255655#Comment_255655 Tue, 17 Aug 2010 06:00:58 -0700 looneynerd Superheroes 'poor role models for boys' http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255892#Comment_255892 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8755&Focus=255892#Comment_255892 Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:19:58 -0700 mister hex