2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=272937#Comment_272937 2010-12-04T04:56:13-08:00 2010-12-04T05:00:35-08:00 Vornaskotti http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6665

Uh, okay - this is interesting. The article is a couple of years old, but I didn't run into it until now. When I started taking film classes at UCLA, I was quickly informed I had what it took to ...

When I started taking film classes at UCLA, I was quickly informed I had what it took to go all the way in film. I was a damn good writer, but more importantly (yeah, you didn’t think good writing was a main prerequisite in this industry, did you?) I understood the process of rewriting to cope with budget (and other) limitations. I didn’t hesitate to rip out my most beloved scenes when necessary. I also did a lot of research and taught myself how to write well-paced action/adventure films that would be remarkably cheap to film – that was pure gold.

There was just one little problem.

I had to understand that the audience only wanted white, straight, male leads. I was assured that as long as I made the white, straight men in my scripts prominent, I could still offer groundbreaking characters of other descriptions (fascinating, significant women, men of color, etc.) – as long as they didn’t distract the audience from the white men they really paid their money to see.

http://thehathorlegacy.com/why-film-schools-teach-screenwriters-not-to-pass-the-bechdel-test/]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=272944#Comment_272944 2010-12-04T06:24:16-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 warrenellis http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2

Before we go all wobbly on this, let's bear in mind that the Bechdel Test is not an actual test. Secondly: how is this actual news to anyone?

Secondly: how is this actual news to anyone?]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=273043#Comment_273043 2010-12-04T17:05:04-08:00 2010-12-04T17:05:16-08:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088

That article is far less interesting, and far less eye-opening than This Film is Not Yet Rated. I hope everyone's seen it by now, it's about five years old, but definitely made me angry at what a ...

This Film is Not Yet Rated. I hope everyone's seen it by now, it's about five years old, but definitely made me angry at what a small, close-minded group decides what kind of movies "the people" are willing to watch.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274155#Comment_274155 2010-12-11T12:56:53-08:00 2010-12-11T13:02:18-08:00 Darthmoga http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1408

...Aren't Will Smith and Angelina Jolie the most bankable movie stars in the world or something?

http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274207#Comment_274207 2010-12-11T18:33:10-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Jon Wake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1684

Also, some overzealous lovers of the 'Betchel Test' forget that in fiction there is such a thing as a supporting character, whose personality exists only to enhance the lead character's role in the ...

http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274244#Comment_274244 2010-12-12T00:34:21-08:00 2010-12-12T00:34:28-08:00 SteadyUP http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5302

let's bear in mind that the Bechdel Test is not an actual test. An actual test according to what? It has questions, whose answers determine a thing's merits according to a predetermined metric. I'd ...

let's bear in mind that the Bechdel Test is not an actual test.
An actual test according to what? It has questions, whose answers determine a thing's merits according to a predetermined metric. I'd be interested in hearing any professional writer present serious critiques of the Bechdel Test's assertions, of which I'm sure there are a handful, but "it's not an actual test" seems kind of glib.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274257#Comment_274257 2010-12-12T04:07:11-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 warrenellis http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2

MASTER AND COMMANDER fails the Bechdel Test. Examine why. Yes, I'm having a little fun with you. But the Bechdel Test is a (useful and interesting) tool of activism and awareness, ...

Yes, I'm having a little fun with you. But the Bechdel Test is a (useful and interesting) tool of activism and awareness, nothing more. The predetermined metric doesn't consider whether the scene serves the story. Which, frankly, is the only metric to be considered. If I need two women to be talking about a man because it activates a bit of plot in the most elegant way, then that's what's going to happen.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274266#Comment_274266 2010-12-12T05:51:18-08:00 2010-12-12T05:51:51-08:00 Finagle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254

A useful contrast and supporting example to the above (/Master and Commander/) is to look at the evolution of the /Star Trek/ franchise. I've just been rewatching the /Voyager/ series, and the ...

Now, my wife had never seen old /Trek/ until first having seen the newer serieses. Trying to go back and watch first gen /Trek/ and appreciate it was a bit difficult in comparison. The nature of an imagined future makes it fairly ridiculous by comparison to have miniskirt-wearing blonde bridge officers running around, and so forth.

The critical difference between old /Trek/ and /Master and Commander/ is of course that one is appropriate and self-consistent to the imagined setting, and one isn't, which is what really makes the difference stand out pretty starkly.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274281#Comment_274281 2010-12-12T08:53:33-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Yskaya http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1359

Answer: we were busy washing our hair while you men were out playing pin the donkey at sea. @Warren: how do you always know when I'm drinking coffee? do you lie in wait to make me snort hydrated ...

@Warren: how do you always know when I'm drinking coffee? do you lie in wait to make me snort hydrated caffeine?



I grew up on adventures aimed at boys/men. A lack of women in leading roles didn't lessen my enjoyment. Guess who I identified with? The Idiot that exclaimed; 'hey let's see what lies over that hill, yonder.' 'no, we don't need supplies' 'its only a short walk' 'ack monsters' let's grab my boomstick chop em to bits/plow my jaguar in their face'.
In the end the hero (minus some group members) is the reader. A story uses what ever it needs to insert itself in your mind.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274284#Comment_274284 2010-12-12T09:10:28-08:00 2010-12-12T09:17:18-08:00 Brendan McGinley http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=93

It has questions, whose answers determine a thing's merits according to a predetermined metric. I'd be interested in hearing any professional writer present serious critiques of the Bechdel Test's ...

It has questions, whose answers determine a thing's merits according to a predetermined metric. I'd be interested in hearing any professional writer present serious critiques of the Bechdel Test's assertions, of which I'm sure there are a handful, but "it's not an actual test" seems kind of glib.

It doesn't actually test anything because what it tests for (well-rounded female characters as opposed to puppets who only exist in relation to men) is neither proven nor disproven by its method of determination.

Moreover, it faults an individual work for the tendencies of the whole. You're only responsible for your own creation, not an industry's. The answer to the real problem it recognizes is not to pass every other story through its standard, but to go out and write a comic or a movie about two women who converse with each other about something besides a man. Bechdel did, and there was an audience for it.

Our host has for 20 years now respected his female characters in a medium not exactly renowned for it, but unless I'm forgetting a scene, Transmet and Planetary get scratched off a Bechdel list, despite the solid characterization of Yelena and Jakita.

So what's it really testing?]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274286#Comment_274286 2010-12-12T09:15:38-08:00 2010-12-12T09:24:47-08:00 Paul Duffield http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6

I'd maintain that the Bechdel Test can actually be a proper analytical tool, but not in the way it tends to be used in conversation (i.e. to ridicule a particular film). It's far more cutting as a ...

So, certainly not a "proper" test for a single screenplay, but definitely one for many many screenplays.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274288#Comment_274288 2010-12-12T09:22:31-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 warrenellis http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2

A useful contrast and supporting example to the above (/Master and Commander/) is to look at the evolution of the /Star Trek/ franchise. I've just been rewatching the /Voyager/ series, and the amount ...

A useful contrast and supporting example to the above (/Master and Commander/) is to look at the evolution of the /Star Trek/ franchise. I've just been rewatching the /Voyager/ series, and the amount of "Bechdel test" moments in the show is pretty staggeringly impressive - and it makes sense to the plot and setting.

And yet, VOYAGER was unmitigated shit.

@Warren: how do you always know when I'm drinking coffee? do you lie in wait to make me snort hydrated caffeine?


I was hoping it'd make someone laugh....

It's far more cutting as a question used to gather statistics on the way women are portrayed in the film industry at large, and as far as I can tell that's how it was originally intended?

Yes.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274296#Comment_274296 2010-12-12T10:10:26-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 SteadyUP http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5302

I wonder how many issues of Y would stand up to the Bechdel. Despite its plethora of female characters, everyone was always talking about Yorick for some reason.

always talking about Yorick for some reason.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274361#Comment_274361 2010-12-12T15:38:41-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Paladine http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5610

Yeah, the Bechdel test is illustrative of trends, not of specific media. And passing the test doesn't mean your work isn't bad, or maybe even sexist, just like not passing doesn't mean you can't have ...

Vormaskotti: I hope you stick around on hathor legacy, I'm a frequent commenter there.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274380#Comment_274380 2010-12-12T17:31:01-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Phranky http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4286

When I write I try to be as economical as possible which basically means that I try to avoid including miscellaneous shit that has absolutely no bearing on the plot or character development. I am ...

I am not going to write a scene where two women chat about something other than a man just because someone tells me that it is not politically correct. Besides, if I'm not mistaken didn't women turn out in droves to see a group of ageing women chat about fucking men in Sex In The City? Not self-respecting heterosexual man chose to see that crap.

It seems to me that she's writing movies that she wants to see and when they're rejected she concocts an elaborate conspiracy theory and claims that Hollywood executives will only make movies they want to see. I will admit there is a certain "male gaze" that penetrates the Hollywood system but they are not the only place that makes movies.

There are many movies that pass the Bechdel test and they range from incredibly shit to pretty good. However the author should probably get her head out of Hollywood's arse and look toward the independent market if she was serious about her work.

Hollywood is the land of multi-billion dollar deals so naturally they will be cautious about financing what is essentially an experiment. If you want to disrupt the status quo then you've got to put in the hard graft to show the big bad executives that these movies are things that people want to see. It is a business after all.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274538#Comment_274538 2010-12-13T15:23:46-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 eDave http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4771

i'm interested that people seem to talk as if a scene in which 'two women talk about something other than a man' would have to be bolted on to a film. Is it so unlikely that such a scene could arise ...

http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274580#Comment_274580 2010-12-13T23:39:56-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 razrangel http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2075

So...here's a half formed thought I'm mulling but too impatient to put off writing while I mull; it's really kind of half assed but you're getting it anyway: I'm reading a write up on Shigeru ...

I'm reading a write up on Shigeru Miyamoto in the New Yorker and I'm taking my sweet time with it because it's bloody long. And I'm thinking, damn did every early video game have a narrative where the "hero" had to save his girlfriend from the bad guy? And the answer is of course, no, because the games that came before Miyamoto's has no real narrative at all. But Donkey Kong, Mario Bros, Zelda etc did because they were simple, straightforward hero stories that gave players a reason to see things through to the end.

(Aside: I don't play video games now but I gave Super Mario Bros a whirl as a little kid and never thought about the implications of going to save my "girlfriend." I was just hopping on mushrooms, catching stars and trying not to fall into pits. Pretty much the same story for my brothers.)

So, since I don't play I can't really be sure of this but I have a suspicion that the stories of video games have gotten far more complex and accommodate if not give characters a greater variety of goals and objectives. And if that's so isn't it because video games first had to take the chance on storylines and mushy ideas like romance to propel them? And if that's so then hasn't the evolution been pushed along as much as the need to find new stories for the medium itself as for its consumers?

Now, the video game industry has been chockful of it's own controversies, never mind extensive power plays, attempts at art, attacks on attempts at art, derision aimed at any idea that there could be art to it.... But it has evolved. Is evolving and will continue to evolve. Well... along its own rules. Just because I used the word "evolve" doesn't mean it will follow either strictly Darwinian or capitalistic rules for such. Even Mother nature or our practical economics don't, so...

But my point is (or my half assed thought, anyway): so movies - or rather, the really popular stories, so I really mean the big budget, big return movies - have that center of the original idea that made it big from the beginning. They shoot for the apex of the bell curve because that will put more butts in seats and sell more tickets. Does it make it impossible for movies to evolve? I'm inclined to think not moreso that video games. Which might not be saying much (again, I know developers, I know it can be really hard to try new ideas).

There are video games expressly made for girls. I know, I was horrified when someone gave my niece a "Barbie goes shopping" sort of game. So they do exist. And someone does play them. Just like someone watched Steel Magnolias. My feeling is, don't give up on an idea but build on it, clear out the failed bits and really (really, please!) support those adventurous ideas that do work. This comes from my former life as an employed person who was regularly going to see films staring people of alternate skin tone, sexuality and/or gender - at the art house theatre that ultimately flopped.

I'm just sayin, no reason to sniff at the stuff you didn't like, particularly if you know someone else did. But that whole "this was maybe part of the mainstream but I really loved it and it made a zillion dollars" that's why the studios don't bother to evolve. Maybe it's a problem, maybe it's not.... I don't know if Princess Toadstool ever had a turn rescuing Mario, but if she did then it's only because of the original. Or maybe even more grand (maybe, but then I've never played) were the Tomb Raider games, which themselves couldn't have existed without Indiana Jones. Etc.

sorry I'm babbling, I just couldn't keep reading the article with the above thought about the hero rescuing the maiden without thinking about this thread. In my defense, however, I'm really not sure what the central question is. Why do film schools teach their students to only create movies certain to be megahits? Uh... because film schools want to brag about their alumna and that's easier when they made a blockbuster than an indie that won first prize in the local film festival?]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274581#Comment_274581 2010-12-13T23:51:39-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 SilentObjector http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2587

@razrangel, Consider the following games and their main storyline component: Braid, Ico, and Shadow Of The Colossus. The three are among the highest-valued arguments in the ...

Consider the following games and their main storyline component: Braid, Ico, and Shadow Of The Colossus. The three are among the highest-valued arguments in the "games-as-art" camp, yet each of the three boils down to "save your girlfriend!"

Also, Peach DID have a game to herself, the object of which was to save Mario (Super Princess Peach).]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274585#Comment_274585 2010-12-14T00:50:40-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Audley Strange http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475

I think the Bechdel test is an anachronism, we all know that women like to talk about weddings, shopping and babies too. Obviously I'm kidding, but it does seem to me to a hangover from the late ...

In saying that, many people just want to be passively entertained, not have their ideological preconceptions on gender issues shattered, which is why things like Mamma Mia and Sex in the City do so well. Is it a problem? I'd say only if you want it to be.

As for games, it is becoming increasingly the norm to have a choice whether you play a male or female character. That is one benefit of that medium that film does not and cannot have.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274596#Comment_274596 2010-12-14T03:43:32-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 adrian r http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=619

This is still a problem area. I read scripts professionally sometimes, and there are a number of times I've come across one particular description that's a shorthand, in the (male) writer's mind, for ...

The arching of the back is the recurrent signifier. Says, so thinks the writer, 'this is a woman in charge of her life and thus her sexuality, and the way we show that is to see her on top'. Never mind whether the sex scene in question is at all relevant to the story through advancing the plot. Sure, things are changing -- but there's a long way to go...

youdothatvoodoo -- dissecting film for fun]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274599#Comment_274599 2010-12-14T03:58:41-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Audley Strange http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4475

@ adrian r. That's amusing. I always thought it was just a lazy excuse for film makers to show off the tits, which in and of itself is formulaic rubbish.

That's amusing. I always thought it was just a lazy excuse for film makers to show off the tits, which in and of itself is formulaic rubbish.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274601#Comment_274601 2010-12-14T04:30:11-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Sobreiro http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3279

@razrangel in Super Mario Bros. 2 you could play with the Princess if you wanted to, it was the exact same game independently of the character.

http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274604#Comment_274604 2010-12-14T05:54:52-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Paul Sizer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=44

I've actually found "The Bechdel Test" to be best used in the creation stage of making stories (as opposed to a post assessment), making me think about why I cast a part a certain way, and ...

http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274639#Comment_274639 2010-12-14T09:20:15-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Jason A. Quest http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192

The Bechdel Test is useful for what it was intended: for a particular person (a fictional one, I might add) to decide whether to skip a movie. Bechdel never presented it as a way of evaluating ...

http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274640#Comment_274640 2010-12-14T09:38:09-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Oddcult http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214

You only think MASTER AND COMMANDER fails the Bechamel test. I have it on good authority that half the crew actually signed their chits as 'S. P. Oliver' and some of them talked to each other during ...

think MASTER AND COMMANDER fails the Bechamel test. I have it on good authority that half the crew actually signed their chits as 'S. P. Oliver' and some of them talked to each other during scenes.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274642#Comment_274642 2010-12-14T09:53:16-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 razrangel http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2075

I know the consideration of games goes astray of the theme of this thread, and worse being that I'm not a gamer I don't have firm ground to consider games where the player can choose female ...

So big megabuck movies are going to run on the same themes and effects when they have women in the lead as men because the character is often treated as the usual hero type but with boobs. Sometimes that's lame, sometimes that's not. (No one seemed to like the Elektra movie but I don't know anyone who saw it. Joss Whedon has a cult following for, among other reasons, a track record of female characters who are capable, intelligent, strong willed and if sexual then it's by choice.) I would look to movies that don't hit the sweetspot of blockbuster entertainment to see if filmmakers are getting greenlit for stories carried by characters who can't (or just shouldn't be) white & male. Because I think that's where you'll find em by the boatload.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274652#Comment_274652 2010-12-14T11:00:54-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 eDave http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4771

are there any sex scenes in movies that are necessary for the plot or advance the action? the two scenes between night owl and silk spectre in watchmen reflected their new found confidence after ...

http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274653#Comment_274653 2010-12-14T11:08:58-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Ariana http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1

Re: games. If you're only going back as far as NES, google "Metroid" and get back to us.

http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274655#Comment_274655 2010-12-14T11:12:51-08:00 2010-12-14T11:18:29-08:00 steevo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2415

@eDave - Fight Club, Basic Instinct, Boogie Nights, fuck it, American Pie...In short, yes, sex scenes advance the plot in a lot, a lot of movies.

http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274663#Comment_274663 2010-12-14T11:35:06-08:00 2010-12-14T11:41:31-08:00 eDave http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4771

do we need to see the actual sex though? I'm not a prude, I'm just wondering how much thrusting and back arching we need to see in order for the plot to be advanced? This precious screen time could ...

sex lies and videotape has relatively little sex or nudity in it, but there's one scene where laura san giacomo simply raises her head into shot with a pretty intense expression on her face which elicited gasps from the audience I saw it with. It also advanced the plot.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274664#Comment_274664 2010-12-14T11:35:18-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 celan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5337

Bechamel test lol

Bechamel test
lol]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274674#Comment_274674 2010-12-14T11:53:47-08:00 2010-12-14T12:05:08-08:00 steevo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2415

@eDave - I guess it depends on what you think of as a sex scene. Never saw Sex, Lies and Videotape, but that sounds like a sex scene to me, albeit not a very graphic one. Any scene depicting sex in ...

ETA...And I'm not saying the experience can't be intense without showing nudity, just saying that that ain't everyone's style.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274723#Comment_274723 2010-12-14T17:23:09-08:00 2010-12-14T17:26:13-08:00 Phranky http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4286

I just take the route of making every character a copy of my personality. That's why they're all passive-aggressive nutcases with delusions of grandeur.

http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274725#Comment_274725 2010-12-14T17:36:36-08:00 2010-12-14T17:41:17-08:00 razrangel http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2075

Usually the sexiness of the sex scene is filed under theme not plot, same with the violence of fight scene. In All Quiet on the Western Front the main character talks quietly with a prostitute but ...

All Quiet on the Western Front the main character talks quietly with a prostitute but all you see is the corner of the bed and shadows on the wall, no movement, not even bodies. In Network whatsherface bangs whatshisface for all he's worth at the same as going on and on to near-orgiac proportions about the TV shows she's dreaming about producing. I'm not sure that it propels the plot in either case but it tells you a damn lot about the characters and the tone/feel that the directors & writers are trying to convey.

Training Day was a very violent drama, but still I say more of a drama than an action movie. It was a bit startling watching it after enjoying the heck out of a slew of John Woo wuxia action movies wherein the fight scenes were gorgeous balletic contrivances - obviously physically doable but seriously unlikely in a real world scenario. Then suddenly Ethan Hawke and Denzel Washington were pounding on each other with such a coarse brutality that it was quite wince-inducing.

So... only thinking about the plot without thinking about such attributes in a story as character development, theme, tone can make for a myopic view. Also for filmmakers it can lead to unnecessarily closing off options and making a one-note, uninteresting boring piece of expensive crap.

ETA: Also, METROID = OOOooohh. Heh. If only the neighbor boys with fancy new Nintendo set had that in their collectionI]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274776#Comment_274776 2010-12-15T05:21:54-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Denari http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7907

On games: Mass Effect lets you play a woman, and have romantic dealings with the male members of the crew (I think). Alternately, you can play the male hero and bone the blue alien girl – James T. ...

Mass Effect lets you play a woman, and have romantic dealings with the male members of the crew (I think). Alternately, you can play the male hero and bone the blue alien girl – James T. Kirk style. Fortunately all boning is off camera.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274795#Comment_274795 2010-12-15T08:01:53-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Nil http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=389

Not to derail the thread further, but the strongest female character I can think of in games is April Ryan from The Longest Journey. Actually, scratch that, she's one of the strongest characters full ...

The Longest Journey. Actually, scratch that, she's one of the strongest characters full stop I've ever seen in a game. I've never made it more than halfway through (may have to resort to using a walkthrough for some of the puzzles), so I can't tell you if she changes towards the end, but I distinctly remember trying to get her to do something stupid early on and her telling me to fuck off, basically. She worries about where her life is going, about her school, about her rent, about the sleazy guy across the hall. Not your traditional hero(ine), by any means.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274828#Comment_274828 2010-12-15T11:08:00-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Paladine http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5610

Denari: no, ME lets women have sex with either gender (because ME has the decidedly bisexual female race in there). And a link that might fit: Gender imbalance in family movies The authors ...

And a link that might fit: Gender imbalance in family movies

The authors looked at all English-language fictional G-rated films released in the U.S. or Canada between September 2006 and September 2009 (a total of 22 movies). They also looked at the 50 highest-grossing films for both PG- and PG-13-ratings, meaning a total of 122 movies is included in the analysis. They focused on characters that were either mentioned by name or spoke at least one word in the movie, leading to a sample of 5,554 characters. Of those, 70.8% were male and 29.2% were female.
(...)

Of course, none of this gets at the content of the films. The study found that female characters were generally younger than male characters, made up only 17% of group or crowd scenes, and often had plotlines that centered entirely around interests in romance.
]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274854#Comment_274854 2010-12-15T12:57:20-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306

@Nil - do finish 'The Longest Journey' if you can. To say that April gets some character development by the end is putting it mildly. On allowing the player to choose the gender of their main ...

On allowing the player to choose the gender of their main character in games, it's something we tried for the first time (for us) with Fable 2. Ended up making a bit of a mess of it in the end, but we did a much better job of it in Fable 3. We made the mistake of basically having the only changes be the shape of the player avatar. Mass Effect does it much better than we do though, playing with the female lead changes a fair amount of the way the game plays out simply because certain character interactions are totally different. Some of the characters are sexist, others are open to being seduced, so playing as the female character gives you different gameplay options.]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274869#Comment_274869 2010-12-15T14:33:47-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 razrangel http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2075

@Flaybo re: Mass Effect That's exactly what I was wondering if games have come around to doing. I worried that games (way back when NES games were the only ones I knew) just took the main ...

Now researching The Longest Journey. }:>]]> http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9262&Focus=274929#Comment_274929 2010-12-16T05:11:18-08:00 2013-06-19T09:05:22-07:00 D.J. http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3196

As I demand a perfect world and equality in all things, I find it interesting to apply the Bechdel test in reverse. There are countless rom-coms (Sex and the City, etc.) and other such feminine ...