Whitechapel - Webcomics And Formats Fri, 24 May 2013 11:57:07 -0700 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.4 & Feed Publisher Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282799#Comment_282799 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282799#Comment_282799 Fri, 11 Feb 2011 18:47:48 -0800 warrenellis
Am I wasting useful energy in thinking so much about the page layout of webcomics? Is it just me who thinks about these things?

Input? ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282805#Comment_282805 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282805#Comment_282805 Fri, 11 Feb 2011 20:06:45 -0800 KPatrickGlover Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282807#Comment_282807 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282807#Comment_282807 Fri, 11 Feb 2011 20:29:24 -0800 kevinmellon
The treesaver link you posted the other day actually helped to solve some problems I had with making a proper web comic with no down scrolling and I've spent an inordinate amount of time resizing test jpgs to see what works best for what I want to do with a horizontal page (ala zuda dimensions).

I think you really *have* to think about format long and hard before you just do something like this, because it's fucking awful to change should you figure out something doesn't work after a good batch of pages are already done. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282809#Comment_282809 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282809#Comment_282809 Fri, 11 Feb 2011 20:37:01 -0800 HEY APATHY! Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282811#Comment_282811 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282811#Comment_282811 Fri, 11 Feb 2011 20:48:53 -0800 ScottBieser
Looking back on that now, I think I over-thought the situation. Splitting the pages up that way only meant that people had to do more screen reloading, and ultimately having to reload screens more often is more inconvenient than having to scroll down. Also, this kind of rules out splash pages, or strongly vertical layouts.

OTOH, I think one ought to avoid making a single panel too tall to be seen all at once on the computer screen. It really takes readers out of the story. For that reason I think the 2x2 grid you use for FreakAngles works well.

But if you think optimizing page layouts for both computer screen and print is complicated, consider also smart phones and tablets (but take an aspirin first). I'm building QUANTUM VIBE on essentially a 2x4 grid so that I have nice little 3:4 panels that fit neatly into an iPhone screen. The challenge now is how to make the assembled pages not look monotonous. Also, the 8-panel layouts end up being a good bit shorter than a traditional comics page, which means that when I go to printed collections I'm going to have odd-sized books, unless I want to use the extra 1.25 vertical inches to add something like footnotes/running commentary, or maybe a secondary strip ala Maakies. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282816#Comment_282816 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282816#Comment_282816 Fri, 11 Feb 2011 22:51:33 -0800 Alan Tyson
With Academy being a science-fiction comic with a heavy emphasis on environments and settings (it's going to take place on a mobile O'Neill Cylinder) I realized that the script called for a LOT of wide, encompassing shots, and that the comic was very much tailored toward widescreen format. So I've decided to make my pages 11 inches tall by 17 wide, which also fits most monitor and tablet dimensions better (though chances are good that it will be essentially unreadable on phones, but there's not much I can do about that without scrapping a lot of, I think, effective creative decisions), and its possible that most readers won't have to scroll at all to read a full page, while receiving the same amount of content. I like this because it takes one extra action, and thus one mental barrier, away from between the reader and the page. I never have to scroll to read Freakangels, either, and its a very nice thing - I let my eyes do all the reading for me, without any reliance on the mouse or the page.

I am thinking about eventual print copies, and right now I kind of like the idea of a landscape format book, mostly because it reminds me of the old Calvin and Hobbes collections (while Academy is nothing like C&H, I really like the look of the book that way). However, I realize this may get me in trouble with printers later if they're not willing to print that way. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282819#Comment_282819 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282819#Comment_282819 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 00:05:04 -0800 Aurora Borealis
Personally, as format and interface go, I found the readers used by manga scanlation sites to be the most convenient (with the exception of double spreads). Just scroll the page down (if it's too big for the screen) and then either press "right" on the keyboard or click on the page to go to the next one.

Generally one thing that doesn't work layoutwise is having long vertical panels that have wor balloons on top and bottom in a way that makes you go up and down the page constantly. I saw people react negatively to such things in comment sections on some webcomics. Also you can't have word balloons or captions "rising" in the panels. That is, say the second balloon can't be above the first one cause even if it would made sense on a traditionally read page (first balloon is closest to the edge of first panel) in a "scrolling medium" the first balloon might seem second or might not be seen by the reader who simply did not scroll enough.

On the other hand I find the blog based system to be an abomination (it's REALLY inconvenient at times) and obviously the fonts/page dimensions have to be large enough to read comfortably but not so large as to cause scrolling sideways. Oh yeah, it's a personal thing, but I REALLY despise comics where it's all in flash and word balloons animate in/out of place and I get to see annoying transitions. If I'll want to see something animated in a tiny square, I'll go to youtube and watch Charlie the Unicorn.

All right, I'm starting to rant so let's wrap this up.

To summarize this ramble:
- as long as the page is large enough to read comfortably but not too large to cause sideways scrolling,
- the interface should be simple, we're here to read comics not watch flash animations,
- give me the option to go to the next page by clicking on that page,
- pay attention to the word balloon order,
- no (or absolute minimum of) double spreads,
- watch the filesize,
- avoid anything that will cause people to scroll both up and down...

In other words, Freakangels covers most of these already (with the exception of the ability to click on the page but that's ok, I always open all pages in a chapter in separate tabs and just cycle through them while reading using keyboard)

(also, as for my own future ongoing stuff, I'm aiming for a "manga reader" based site with bi-weekly 20-page b/w chapters, pages probably around 600-700px wide, not wider than that... no double spreads, splash pages kept under control, designed to fit manga-sized pages when in print). ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282835#Comment_282835 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282835#Comment_282835 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 07:38:00 -0800 Berserker
Of course, if any maker is looking at physical publication down the road then a landscape format isn't going to work much in their favor at all. This isn't to say that landscape format books haven't been successful before, obviously, but it does usually seem to make aggravations for printers and retailers, and frankly doesn't play well with other books on a shelf at home, either.

I've found myself thinking of other ways to make a landscape book work in that sense - but that's digressing from the subject here. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282837#Comment_282837 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282837#Comment_282837 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 08:38:54 -0800 oldhat Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282838#Comment_282838 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282838#Comment_282838 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 08:55:28 -0800 ScottBieser Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282840#Comment_282840 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282840#Comment_282840 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:16:48 -0800 Andre Navarro
The first special edition was around sixty panels long, the second was eighty and the third and latest, a hundred and ten. Each of them a single, long image to scroll down. I guess you could call that a straightforward infinite canvas.

To me this is the most comfortable way to read a digital comic: all you have to is scroll down. The width fits your screen already. No need to click any buttons to load new pages or to navigate through an unwelcoming maze of panels that branch out in all directions as one comic made in Flash asked the reader to do. From beginning to end, the story isn't interrupted.

The particular comic I linked to is built on a three-panels per tier format, laid in bricklike pattern to loosen it up. This didn't cause any limitations: when I needed to switch to two-panels-per-tier layout for an interview sequence, I could easily, and when I needed a big square of a panel (the pageless equivalent of a splash page), the width allowed for sufficient space.

In case I'm worried about a future print version, this kind of comic can actually translate well for pages because it's drawn in pages. It's obviously a pain in the ass to draw in a file with seventy thousand pixels of length, so instead it's made in segments that are later patched together. These segments can have their length limited to a constant value as well as their width, which can guarantee your very long comic can be turned into equal-sized pages for print, while digitally all it requires is scrolling.

After I posted this comic, some people complained they couldn't view it. For a moment I thought my infinity ambitions were doomed, until I found out every single person complaining was using Internet Explorer and every other person using an actual browser was having no trouble at all, would you believe.

The obvious limitation of this is file size. The hundred and ten panels I made correspond to 2,4 MB, and are equivalent to your average 22pp comic at best. But it's not colored and it's not relatively long. A colored graphic novel in this format would be quite impractical and require pages (they could be very long pages but still they'd need to be pages).

But for my current webcomic, which doesn't have such ambitions, this format fits very well. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282841#Comment_282841 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282841#Comment_282841 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:20:36 -0800 Berserker Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282844#Comment_282844 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282844#Comment_282844 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:37:20 -0800 Vaehling
My first online comics had a variety of formats - infinite canvas, strip format, cut-down page splits, full pages embedded in a wider layout. (I apologize for the Germanness of these examples - it wasn't until much later that I started English comics. It's really just for illustration, so no harm done, right?) But, with the exception of the strip, they were short-term experiments with no publishing plan.

When I started serializing my Conny Van Ehlsing (at one page a week), I considered cutting the page into halves or other fragments for the web but decided against it because in the long run, it would have compromised my page layouts once I'd bring them back to print. And I was just starting to really explore page layouts!

Also, the whole page has a rhythm the cut-down half-page doesn't have. You can't have a page-turner twice every page (once in print)! It'll get old pretty soon.

The web experience did change the way I approached pages, though - I found myself putting more story into each page to make it a satisfying read worth waiting a week for. In print, these stories turn out to be very tight and fast-paced. It's a compromise I can live with.

Also, what Aurora Borealis said - what you see of the page needs to be instantly readable. No scrolling just to understand the sequence of word balloons. You read, then you scroll. Never make your readers scroll only to (maybe) find out the read wasn't worth their effort. For the same reason, I despise comic blogs (with the typical blog layout that shows the latest page first, and to read the comic in the right order, you'll have to scroll down and up again, unless it's published backwards).

Speaking of web layout, I think it's important to use the width of the browser window - but there's no reason to use it all for the comic. (Freakangels is a good example for what else you can do with that space.)

Scrolling really shouldn't be an issue - everybody is used to that from practically every web page worth reading, and if I can't get a reader to move her index finger down the mouse wheel a little to find out how the page ends, I probably won't get her to click for the next page either. (I make an exception for gag-a-day strips here. Gag readers want a quick laugh at a quick glance. I wouldn't expect them to scroll for it, and I definitely wouldn't force them to. But in a long-form comic, I want the kind of readers who are ready to engage in the read.) ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282845#Comment_282845 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282845#Comment_282845 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:41:40 -0800 warrenellis I'm generally more concerned with the story beats falling in the right places. I tend to leave most of the visual stuff to the artist.


This is off topic, but I have to tell you: a comics writer with no visual sense, and no interest in exercising it, is unlikely to become much of a comics writer. Learn to think about and visualise the panel AND the page. Believe me, you'll thank me for this in the end. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282846#Comment_282846 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282846#Comment_282846 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:43:32 -0800 warrenellis Generally one thing that doesn't work layoutwise is having long vertical panels that have wor balloons on top and bottom in a way that makes you go up and down the page constantly. I saw people react negatively to such things in comment sections on some webcomics.

You'll note that on the rare occasions I've done page-tall vertical panels in FA, there's been negative space on the other side.

I'm also thinking a lot about black-and-white again, to be honest. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282847#Comment_282847 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282847#Comment_282847 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:47:19 -0800 Audley Strange Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282848#Comment_282848 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282848#Comment_282848 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:57:55 -0800 Alberto
Hard to say. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282851#Comment_282851 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282851#Comment_282851 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:56:45 -0800 -3- Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282852#Comment_282852 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282852#Comment_282852 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:07:13 -0800 Aurora Borealis You'll note that on the rare occasions I've done page-tall vertical panels in FA, there's been negative space on the other side.

Yeah. Had to look through the archive since it slipped my mind.

Interestingly, I looked back through my own stuff and I found that I did truckload of pages with long vertical panels, for example this one...

page 1
linkin case direct linking fails.

(also, don't mind the art, this is a 3 years old page, haha).

Now if I recall correctly no one's ever complained about that particular page. Word balloons pull you to the right column of panels and there's no lone word balloon at the bottom of the tall vertical one to make someone angry that they missed something by not scrolling down first. Of course there might have been people who scrolled down to see what's below before continuing but if so, no one has said anything. But I do try to be a bit more careful with recent stuff.

@Alberto: Technology is imposing limitations on language of comics since the first printed page.

The old four color process used to color comics, the need to adhere to CMYK palette to have something printed, page dimensions (standard comics size in USA, A4 format in Europe and so on), b/w for underground comics to keep the costs low. The way I see it, we can retain MOST of the comics language and the changes made to it are actually beneficial to clarity. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282854#Comment_282854 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282854#Comment_282854 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:15:27 -0800 kperkins
Working on a project right now, that is, like Freakangels, going to be serialized on the web, and then printed. I'm more worried about the printed aspect of it, but think I've found a way to make it look good on a webpage, too, with just some down scrolling, like Freakangels, also, but using a different grid. If it was going to be web only, I probably would have gone with a format like Zuda's, since I really liked that; it worked on the web, and was probably fine for something like the iPad, although I'm not sure how it would translate to a smaller screen.
Simple interface is always great. Either navigation buttons, or click on the pic to go to the next page, or, preferably both. No Flash, that was my one problem with Zuda; you can do everything Zuda did with html, css, and some javascript, and make it lighter, and faster. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282856#Comment_282856 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282856#Comment_282856 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:40:18 -0800 Berserker
Perhaps the absolutely SQUARE format is the next BIG THING? ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282858#Comment_282858 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282858#Comment_282858 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:55:12 -0800 michaelk42
I don't know why the square format in his case, but it seems to work just fine.

[EDIT: Then I got some time and off my ass and googled Mr. Petersen's explanation.] ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282888#Comment_282888 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282888#Comment_282888 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:26:33 -0800 Alberto The way I see it, we can retain MOST of the comics language and the changes made to it are actually beneficial to clarity.

@Aurora Borealis. Honestly, I don't know. I can't help but think accesibility in webcomics has a price and there's some risk of over simplification. All I'm saying is We shouldn't give up on tools that easily.

Above, Warren has a hint on how to make page-tall panels work. I'd like to think there's also a way (god knows how) to make double page spreads, or whatever. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282902#Comment_282902 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282902#Comment_282902 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 17:13:16 -0800 Paul Renderwrx Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282905#Comment_282905 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282905#Comment_282905 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 17:30:51 -0800 KPatrickGlover
This is off topic, but I have to tell you: a comics writer with no visual sense, and no interest in exercising it, is unlikely to become much of a comics writer. Learn to think about and visualise the panel AND the page. Believe me, you'll thank me for this in the end.


Recognizing that this is off topic, I still fell compelled to ask. Whenever I think too specifically about page layout or visualization, I feel like I'm stepping on the toes (and creativity) of the artist. Is there a happy medium or am I just overthinking this? Do most artists mind being scripted to that level? I spent so many years hearing about "Marvel Style" writing, that I've come to think of that as the standard, and it's hard to push that out of my head. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282912#Comment_282912 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282912#Comment_282912 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 18:35:54 -0800 warrenellis Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282916#Comment_282916 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282916#Comment_282916 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 19:03:40 -0800 KPatrickGlover Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282927#Comment_282927 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282927#Comment_282927 Sat, 12 Feb 2011 20:25:38 -0800 William George
BUT, I have been thinking about the rise in popularity of using iPhones and tablets for reading the web. A simple flip and your landscape becomes portrait or vise versa. I guess in a way they make the entire question pointless.

I dunno if that way of viewing the web will take over from the personal computer, but sometimes I think an infinite canvas style scrolling comic will work better with a device that also works by scrolling than it does on a PC. I may put it to the test one of these days. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282947#Comment_282947 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282947#Comment_282947 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 02:13:25 -0800 Aurora Borealis
The horizontal comics I saw often were posted on sites not really prepared for them. For example Drunkduck (where I generally host my stuff) puts so much banners and shit on the top of the screen + people getting carried away with a large title banner for the thing that you sometimes end up scrolling single strips!

And extra hilarity ensues if the creator forgot that not eveyrone has 1280 or wider screens and the comic "bleeds" off the screen on the sides too.

On the other hand, once everyone switches to a wider resolution than 1024x768 (and as the old CRT monitors are replaced with LCD ones this is slowly happening) you'll be able to have nice doublespreads. Say, a manga-sized project serialized as 600px wide pages becomes a 1200 wide doublespread on top of a 1280 wide screen. That would work! ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282957#Comment_282957 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282957#Comment_282957 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 04:16:41 -0800 Vaehling
For the one pagespread I've used in my life, I've rigged ComicPress to choose a different site layout. The single pages are 700px wide, I think, and the double page is 960, so it isn't a real double, but the effect still works. Also, not much text here, so reading isn't an issue. (Link to the page before, for full effect. Again, I apologize it's in German, but this isn't about plugging the comic, it's about the layout.)

The scene is from a 24 hour comic, and I used the pagespread as a fun way of getting two pages done in as little time as possible. (The dialogue on the page roughly translates to "must gain space".) It's a print comic mirrored online, and I never managed to present that page right (until I found that CP workaround). It's also the last double-page spread I ever made, and precisely for that reason. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282997#Comment_282997 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=282997#Comment_282997 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:02:50 -0800 warrenellis Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283019#Comment_283019 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283019#Comment_283019 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:47:15 -0800 Alan Tyson
A simple flip and your landscape becomes portrait or vise versa. I guess in a way they make the entire question pointless.


True, but I think the vast majority of people still do their webcomics reading on lap-or-desktop machines - tablets are still far from ubiquitous, and I can't read anything much more visually complex than a Penny Arcade strip (and props to Gabe's artwork for me being able to read even that) on my phone. If I want to read something with a good amount of text, or heavy detail work, I'll be needing a landscape-monitor computer.

Another thought: Not all webcomics are drawn on the computer, but most of them see a computer as part of their creation process, whether for letters or colors or just plain clean-up work. This allows the artist to see how the page will look on the screen, and still make corrections for that if they need to. To the best of my knowledge, there aren't any comics being made entirely using a phone or tablet (though I guess I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that there are some), and the only way to know how a page will look on such a screen is to put it up on one - and then, if you need to fix something, you've got to go back to the drawing board or the computer (or both) to fix that, and THEN put it back up on the tablet or phone.

All this boils down to is that I still think webcomic artists should consider people's primary machines first, and their accessory machines second, when they are considering formats, at least for the near future. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283038#Comment_283038 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283038#Comment_283038 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:19:14 -0800 Mark Seifert Perhaps the absolutely SQUARE format is the next BIG THING?
I've often thought this is a pretty interesting idea given you have no clue at this point what sort of device your comic is going to be viewed on.

But it wouldn't work well for translating it to the standard print comic size (nor does 2 square panels on a page, or 2 x 2. You'd have to go to Gravel-style 2 x 3, which may or may not be what you want on screen).

Personally I love the webcomics that allow you to just scroll down to read the next page and so on. Keeping everything right there, so those of us with weak internet connections don't have to suffer through laborious page loads again and again.

Purely from the reading standpoint I've never liked this that much and could never put my finger on why, but then realized how much more I enjoyed reading lengthy text on Kindle with a page-flip as opposed to scrolling on a web page. I think having a discreet page even with variable content size (number of panels, amount of text) in digital has value as a reading cue -- you see a container of content and then drill down on it -- that allows you to absorb the relationship between the pieces of content (panels, sentences/paragraphs/etc) more easily. Or something.

I'm sort of conflicted on stuff like comixology's "guided view" and other panel-level viewing implementations for similar reasons, even if you're on a small screen. It effects your perception of the relationship between panels which is of course important. But obviously it's still early days and we're all just trying to figure these things out. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283040#Comment_283040 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283040#Comment_283040 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:20:03 -0800 RichBarrett
However, even though larger resolutions are becoming more popular, the iPad -- and I imagine most future tablets-- display browser content perfectly if it is designed for 1024x768. I recently redesigned my web comic site and one of my objectives was to cut out some unnecessary vertical space especially in the header so that it would fit better (though not perfectly) on the iPad while also looking great on desktop browsers. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283048#Comment_283048 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283048#Comment_283048 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:33:55 -0800 warrenellis I'm sort of conflicted on stuff like comixology's "guided view" and other panel-level viewing implementations for similar reasons, even if you're on a small screen. It effects your perception of the relationship between panels

Totally agree here. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283071#Comment_283071 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283071#Comment_283071 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:12:40 -0800 Brendan McGinley I have to admit, I'm currently tending towards a manga-sized page and an implementation of treesaver.js....

I favor Floatbox though I'd use Fancybox if I could get it to work with my Comicpress setup. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283103#Comment_283103 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283103#Comment_283103 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:39:08 -0800 PatrickBrown
The Cattle Raid of Cooley page 86

In situ on my website, I've also designed a navigation bar that fits at the top and bottom of each page, so the reader can click the next page, the previous one, the beginning and the most recent page without having to scroll in either direction. If you've read the page the bottom, you don't have to scroll back to the top to click "next", and if you want to click through several pages at once, back or forward, to reach a page you recognise, you don't have to scroll down to the bottom of each page. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283129#Comment_283129 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283129#Comment_283129 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:32:38 -0800 Alberto a try and see It running some comic pages.

I like It. It's promising, but not user friendly. At least for now. You need to fiddle with the code evey time you want to make an update. Also, you'd have to find a way to generate rss feeds out of this.

I think this would work a lot better with a landscape format than It does with my pages. I had to squeeze them in there to make It work. The controls are clunky, but that's probably my fault. Arrow keys work smoothly.

I'm sure someone with a better understanding of css than me would make a lot more out of this. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283135#Comment_283135 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283135#Comment_283135 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:56:50 -0800 warrenellis Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283149#Comment_283149 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283149#Comment_283149 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:08:27 -0800 GregCarter Love is in the Blood it looks pretty clear even on a smaller screen.

People's reading preferences are all over the place, so rather than make myself nuts about whether one format will get a few more readers than another I've stuck with the same "traditional" format. And with iPads and other tablets easily made portrait for full-page comic reading it's looking like a good decision at the moment. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283156#Comment_283156 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283156#Comment_283156 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:46:42 -0800 ScottBieser In Chrome/Vista, the first page loads but nothing else works. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283194#Comment_283194 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283194#Comment_283194 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:19:22 -0800 Berserker
While working on square pages ( with whatever sized/oriented panels within those you care to use ) goes a ways toward fixing the worry of whether it'll 'fit' on any given device it's viewed on, a print version is necessarily going to be square.

I wrung out my brain thinking of ways to fit such a book into a standard sized comic format in print - and all I could think of was adding bonus material or some similar 'extra matter' on each page to fill it out. While that would be a nifty perk for anyone who followed a webcomic through to buying a printed version of it, it would be a prohibitive and mind-breaking chore for the poor creators stuck trying to figure out how to do that. So yeah, square pages online is square pages in print.


@alberto - Firefox/Win7 also directs from that link to a blank page template where nothing appears/works. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283216#Comment_283216 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283216#Comment_283216 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 02:52:07 -0800 thirtyseven Union of Heroes the page format was one of the first things I was thinking about. I decided to go for a horizontal format where you don't have to scroll to see the full page. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283236#Comment_283236 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283236#Comment_283236 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 06:50:30 -0800 Oddcult
I've just got one, so am interested in seeing what it can do. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283240#Comment_283240 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283240#Comment_283240 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 07:34:11 -0800 warrenellis Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283243#Comment_283243 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283243#Comment_283243 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 07:47:07 -0800 Oddcult
I got one because a Kindle and an iPhone with keyboard is probably the best manbag sized 'everything I really need' compromise, over and above an iPad or netbook, but comics are the one thing that combo still doesn't really do. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283258#Comment_283258 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283258#Comment_283258 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 08:52:51 -0800 Alberto some tweaks, but It's still buggy.

The biggest problem I have is I can't automatically shrink my images for the different resolutions and browsers. There must be a way, but right now I'm stuck with a 640x990 image size and the lettering looks too small to me. Running in Chrome&Firefox+XP, Chrome+W7 & Android 1.5. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283262#Comment_283262 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283262#Comment_283262 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:04:21 -0800 Neila I have seen some webcomics that just go nuts with the layout and you have to scroll down a crazy amount to get to the end of the page, but it works in a way, making the scene somewhat interactive. Those same comics are difficult to format for print.

Black and white might be a good idea. I'm not super familiar with e-readers, but it should make the file size for pages smaller, if that's a problem with them. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283263#Comment_283263 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283263#Comment_283263 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:15:44 -0800 Aurora Borealis
Personally, in a couple of weeks I'll be messing around with the Wordpress Kommiku plugin. Here it is in action (I probably shouldn't link to a scanlation site, heh, but that's what these things are mostly used for).
This is the "series" page with the list of chapters. Once you choose the chapter you just click the image or press right cursor key to move to the next page. Simple, efficient, just requires scrolling down (especially if you go crazy with your header's size, heh). Works well whether you prefer keyboard or mouse navigation.

And I'm sure someone skilled with some php or whatever programming skills could whip up something similar fairly easily so it doesn't have to be Wordpress based. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283266#Comment_283266 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283266#Comment_283266 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:28:14 -0800 Brian le Golem If I understand correctly, the matter is about how the format is still paper-framed, more than taking advantage of the widest possibilities given by a screen.
I think the format issue is still proof that Webcomics are made by people who want to print it and sell it paper-like. It is therefore limited by the printed format. Eisner and Miller discuss this format issue (you mention 300 in your Metro interview), as well as Scoot McCloud in reinventing comics.
When you have a look at Marvel version of Webcomics, the best you can hope to get is a zoom-in version of each pictures. When you have a look at any E-reader, it's still designed as paper support stand-in.
When I did my piece on Ghost Exterminator in your Remake/Remodel thread, I wanted to use a specificity of the web, in which you don't turn the pages, but you just scroll down. Mind you, it's still done out of paper and not widely original.
The interaction picture/image is still being developed, but yes, we can think of another kind of interaction between the story and the screen. How about a Peter Greenaway presentation, with a story developing in one panel, but sliding in one way or another? I once saw a PPS slideshow in which you actually see the pictures evolve by only zooming-in and ending at the beginning point. So a story could be made this way.

Here's my piece of thought. Hope it's not out of line... ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283272#Comment_283272 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283272#Comment_283272 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:47:50 -0800 Berserker Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283299#Comment_283299 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283299#Comment_283299 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:07:49 -0800 Bradley W. Schenck
And I'm sure someone skilled with some php or whatever programming skills could whip up something similar fairly easily so it doesn't have to be Wordpress based.


In fact Wordpress can be pretty useful as a framework. It's got built-in functions for dealing with the database, handling comments, categories, and archives, it pre-schedules posts, it filters spammy comments, and it's easily cached (with plugins). Your "someone skilled with PHP" can customize the living crap out of it, to the point that it doesn't look like Wordpress in any way.

From where I sit a big problem with comics systems is that they use so little text that it's hard to get the search engines to understand there's any content there. In any other kind of web site you'll get most of your traffic from searches. But anything that's mainly graphics is hard to index and hard to find. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283307#Comment_283307 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283307#Comment_283307 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:56:45 -0800 ScottBieser
In both cases, adapting meant chopping up pages into one- or two-panel bits, and re-sizing the lettering. Quite a bit of work, actually, and not much reward. The Kindle's dark, low-contrast screen just doesn't show off art very well. Although, if one uses the Kindle-for-the-iPhone app, they look pretty good on the iPhone. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283333#Comment_283333 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283333#Comment_283333 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:16:43 -0800 Alberto The image (..) is cut off at the bottom
I know. It's annoying. The blurriness and loading problems some of you mentioned may have to do with the heavy image compression I used in order to preserve bandwith. I appreciate the input, but I'm just poking around for now. A few months ago I spent a long time looking for something like Treesaver, until I finally gave up and built a website based on Wordpress+ the Webcomics Plugin+Inkblot.

Experiments aside, one of my biggest concerns with webcomics has always been dealing with a big archive and pointing new readers in the right direction. The classic "Are you new? Start here!" link never made It for me. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283363#Comment_283363 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283363#Comment_283363 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 19:57:54 -0800 Tim Simmons 64k-per-screen limit makes Kindle comics difficult. Josh Fialkov did one, as I recall.

Yup, Tumor-- which was fantastic.

I think the reason Tumor worked so well on the Kindle was because of Noel's style-- hard black, whites, and grays-- Obviously, that's something the Kindle excels at.

Interestingly, from what I understand-- if you were to upload a book to the Kindle service and use one of their "In App" readers (not reading it on a Kindle, but rather on a desktop Kindle reader) you would see it in color.

Which tells me that if Amazon is "holding" your color files, a color version of the Kindle isn't far off.
The 64k per screen limit? THAT might be a problem. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283368#Comment_283368 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283368#Comment_283368 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 20:21:14 -0800 Mark Seifert Which tells me that if Amazon is "holding" your color files, a color version of the Kindle isn't far off.
Talking to Amazon, I got the impression they really want you to focus on the platform rather than on the device specifically. But with so many Kindles out there that bears some thinking about, and there are other technical issues to sort through. Honestly, I'd love to support them, though.

I did notice they have a bunch of IDW stuff in the Kindle store now that I've been meaning to take a look at. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283393#Comment_283393 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283393#Comment_283393 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 03:41:45 -0800 jonah
For anyone that hasn't read Bluebetty it's basic page layout is 4 widescreen panels that get chopped and exploded in clever ways from time to time. It's pretty text heavy, but then the scenic breaks they take are that much more effective. The layouts get slightly more fanciful as the series goes on, but as a reader there is something really satisfying about the early books that have more rigid formatting. It's really rhythmic and almost trance inducing. I don't see a lot of work in this format anymore. Is it too grueling or is it that it doesn't appeal to anyone else?

With manga style I like 10-15 pages a sitting at least. It doesn't have to be all one story... ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283398#Comment_283398 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283398#Comment_283398 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 06:14:21 -0800 Vaehling From where I sit a big problem with comics systems is that they use so little text that it's hard to get the search engines to understand there's any content there. In any other kind of web site you'll get most of your traffic from searches. But anything that's mainly graphics is hard to index and hard to find.

That's indeed a problem, though I don't know how big a problem it really is. After all, if you google stuff you're usually trying to find information about whatever you googled, not necessarily a comic that happens to have those keywords in it. And if you're looking for a comic, the keywords of your site's more general pages will be a better place to start than a page that happens to contain the keyword you're searching a comic about.

A lot of comic sites post the dialogue to every episode in the accompanying post, hoping to attract searches. (That may be good for visually impaired readers, too, I don't know.) This may work for cartoons and some gag-a-days, but I think it's more deceiving than not in a longform comic that takes a thematic detour for an ep or two. Plus, it makes the reading experience redundant. Actually, not always: ComicPress (or some of its child themes) offers a transcript function that hides the transcript like a spoiler text. And some comics, like Union of Heroes, hide the dialogue in the comic images' alt tags.

I've got into the habit of using the accompanying blog post for additional information and stuff, although I'm not a fan of anything that interrupts your reading flow. But it helps make the site more search-friendly, and the searchers hopefully get something more out of it than just a mention of the words they searched for. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283407#Comment_283407 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283407#Comment_283407 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 07:53:31 -0800 Bradley W. Schenck That's indeed a problem, though I don't know how big a problem it really is.

I think it's a sizable problem: it's just that it's so universal that it's hard to see it. (I'm not doing a web comic site - not exactly, anyhow - but I have been building sites that are mainly visual for a long time*.)

The hidden transcript is good, but it may look shady to Google because the big G doesn't like hidden text. Alt tags on the images are a very good idea; even better if it's an image per panel, but that's not very practical.

I've got into the habit of using the accompanying blog post for additional information and stuff, although I'm not a fan of anything that interrupts your reading flow. But it helps make the site more search-friendly, and the searchers hopefully get something more out of it than just a mention of the words they searched for.


I think that's your best option with the tools that exist: related text, not identical text, on the same page. This is all the bots will be able to see.

The most SEO-friendly approach would be to use actual text for dialogue and narration (and an image per panel, with descriptive alt text). Unfortunately at the moment you'd be restricted to rectangular blocks of text, though with HTML5 we might be seeing that loosen up a bit.

I doubt that many people would want to go that way unless you could use the same source material for both the web and print versions.

*edit: I completely forgot that I did design a web comic site for somebody else. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283412#Comment_283412 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283412#Comment_283412 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:45:54 -0800 Vaehling about, not illustrations of a topic. And you don't want the first impression you make on somebody to be a frustrating one.

Let's assume you have a horror comic, and the monster is about to eat the hero, saying something like "Ooh, snacks! Does anybody have a ship load of guacamole?" This page would be entirely useless if you're searching for a guacamole recipe. So why have that word in the back end anyway? Aren't keywords like "man-eating monster" better?

Yes, I realize I'm clearly overthinking it. But the point stands - SEO for comics may have to use different strategies than SEO for, dunno, recipe sites. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283417#Comment_283417 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283417#Comment_283417 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:37:11 -0800 Bradley W. Schenck
Let's assume you have a horror comic, and the monster is about to eat the hero, saying something like "Ooh, snacks! Does anybody have a ship load of guacamole?" This page would be entirely useless if you're searching for a guacamole recipe. So why have that word in the back end anyway? Aren't keywords like "man-eating monster" better?

Yes, that would absolutely be better, but the engines will always favor actual page text over alt tags or other methods of getting appropriate keywords in there, so it's a mixed bag. If you watch the search engine visits to a site you'll often find strange and sometimes funny search results. An example is my "Ladies World Domination Society" T-shirts, which get a lot of visits from people who were looking for something pretty different.
My point is that yes, you do everything else you can with alt text and additional page content, but you're still better off with the search engines if you can get your page's actual content available to the bots in something other than a graphic; maybe additional, maybe integrated into the display. It can only help. Even with the guacamole, which I've seen used as a weapon anyhow. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283423#Comment_283423 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283423#Comment_283423 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:05:17 -0800 lazarus corporation The most SEO-friendly approach would be to use actual text for dialogue and narration (and an image per panel, with descriptive alt text). Unfortunately at the moment you'd be restricted to rectangular blocks of text, though with HTML5 we might be seeing that loosen up a bit.

Actually, it's CSS3 rather than HTML5 that will potentially allow non-rectangular blocks of text. HTML is pure semantic mark-up, whereas CSS controls the visual presentation of that mark-up. You can hack this on non-CSS3-capable browsers by using JavaScript.

I doubt that many people would want to go that way unless you could use the same source material for both the web and print versions.


...which is what major (non-comic) publishers are doing (disclaimer: I work for one). Basically you store the original content as XML with assorted images etc stored in their highest resolutions in a lossless format.

From that XML repository you can generate a print-on-paper book, an ebook, or a page of HTML by applying an XSL transformation. Similarly images can be resized on the fly and converted to appropriate file formats (most server-side languages can do this - PHP uses phpGD or ImageMagick) so that they are suitable for the use in question (high-res TIF/EPS/whatever for print, screen res JPG/PNG for webpage etc). ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283425#Comment_283425 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283425#Comment_283425 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:18:05 -0800 Bradley W. Schenck From that XML repository you can generate a print-on-paper book, an ebook, or a page of HTML by applying an XSL transformation. Similarly images can be resized on the fly and converted to appropriate file formats (most server-side languages can do this - PHP uses phpGD or ImageMagick) so that they are suitable for the use in question (high-res TIF/EPS/whatever for print, screen res JPG/PNG for webpage etc).

That's just what I was getting at: a single source that you could export in multiple formats. That's about the only way that a sane person would try to get there.

As to HTML/CSS3, you're probably right, but I was thinking about the canvas element as the real New Thing. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283427#Comment_283427 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283427#Comment_283427 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:36:26 -0800 lazarus corporation As to HTML/CSS3, you're probably right, but I was thinking about the canvas element as the real New Thing.

The new Canvas element certainly offers a richer way to do it, although I don't think the search engines crawl content in a Canvas element since it's so tied into JavaScript.

Incidental thought: for the "web" version, if you use a device-detection database (such as WURFL) then you can automatically detect the available screensize of the device (along with other capabilities - JavaScript, Flash, etc) and apply additional XSL transformations on the fly to provide CSS/HTML/image formats for different screen sizes or browser capabilities (if you're working from a single XML data source).

Although the headaches that multiple layouts would give to writers/artists might cause a few heads to explode.

This does provide a partial solution for the SEO problems - deliver the content in a canvas element for JS/CSS3 friendly devices, but automatically fall back to a full text version (maybe with a dynamically generated single image of all panels) for non-JS devices - Googlebots (and screen reader software) will fall back to the text version. Since it's legitimate content then there shouldn't be any penalties from Google. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283430#Comment_283430 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283430#Comment_283430 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:09:49 -0800 Tim Simmons Talking to Amazon, I got the impression they really want you to focus on the platform rather than on the device specifically. But with so many Kindles out there that bears some thinking about, and there are other technical issues to sort through. Honestly, I'd love to support them, though.

Oh, myself as well. Honestly, with all the hubabaloo about "saving the industry" and "getting new readers"-- Amazon plays a huge part. My wife's father, a high school geometry teacher who LOVED Superman as a kid, got a Kindle over the holidays that he's absolutely addicted to. If (with my prodding) he could get a copy of JMS' Superman GN, or Waid's Birthright on the device, I think he'd become a causal reader again. Honestly, I think that goes for a LOT of other folks out there as well.

That said, I understand Amazon's reluctance to try to re-launch the market with a color Kindle. When they lowered their price point late last year, the Kindle really started to find its foothold as a platform. Introducing a color version would undoubtedly raise that price point and confuse potential costumers ("Do I buy the B/W, or the Color? Fuck it-- I don't want either b/c they're making me choose!")

I still say it's only a matter of time before we see higher powered Kindles and Color ones to boot-- but that time might be longer than I think.
Besides that, I have to admit, what it does (read books) it does very well.

I did notice they have a bunch of IDW stuff in the Kindle store now that I've been meaning to take a look at.


I did a little digging around, apparently Mike Jasper and Niki Smith of In Maps and Legends figured out how to get their digital comic up there...


...which was based on the research and work that Alex de Camp did on Valentine.

Mike didn't mention anything about the 64k limit on his writeup, so hopefully that's something they've gotten around. If I find out more, I'll report back! ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283436#Comment_283436 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=283436#Comment_283436 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:57:03 -0800 Mark Seifert I still say it's only a matter of time before we see higher powered Kindles and Color ones to boot-- but that time might be longer than I think.
Besides that, I have to admit, what it does (read books) it does very well.
They'll get it right over the long term. They're not primarily a hardware company and that's something that takes awhile to figure out. They make mistakes but Amazon is quietly a pretty interesting company.

Mike didn't mention anything about the 64k limit on his writeup, so hopefully that's something they've gotten around. If I find out more, I'll report back!

It's been awhile since I looked at it but weren't some people trying to get around this by splitting up the graphic? ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=286813#Comment_286813 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=286813#Comment_286813 Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:42:05 -0700 Lee Edward
Mainly, I just try not to think too much about web comic formatting any more, simply because the old McCloud idea about infinite canvas seems to have suffered an ignoble death in the face of web comics going to print. The best compromise I can see for people starting out who aren't thinking about print, it's probably best to build single page or vertical scroll comics and deal with the PDA issue only if it's really close to your heart. I don't mean to be exclusionist, but really, I think comic pages look stupid on a little handheld screen, and I can't seem to find it in my heart to simply write/draw a comic one panel at a time. It doesn't feel like comics to me. Might just as well stick to text and spot illos for those folks, even if they have a really pretty iTouch screen or whatever. Some things simply aren't meant to work on a little screen.

That said, I love it when an artist proves me wrong. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=286903#Comment_286903 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=286903#Comment_286903 Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:49:35 -0700 mercurialblonde
//The Coming Thing\\

I've definitely been seeing more and more of these sort of infinite scroll type webcomics where you just scroll down through the story instead of clicking to a diffrent page or anything. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=286941#Comment_286941 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=286941#Comment_286941 Tue, 15 Mar 2011 08:10:14 -0700 Lee Edward
*wanders off to grumble and consider the problem some more* ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=287815#Comment_287815 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=287815#Comment_287815 Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:50:18 -0700 ScottBieser
Or did someone explain this already? I'm an old man and I forget shit sometimes. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=287847#Comment_287847 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=287847#Comment_287847 Wed, 23 Mar 2011 20:38:32 -0700 Tom Akel
For those discussing SEO, the dialog in your comic really doesn't hold much SEO value, so it's probably not worth bothering with it. Just as the individual items in a recipe don't hold much value, it's your title and meta data that will drive search traffic.

To answer your question though, Warren, we think about it all the time, but being able to print collected editions is still something that everyone wants so no one has deviated from that yet. I'd love to publish a digital comic that completely defies tradition so long as it was done to better serve the story. So who's up for doing a book that's an ongoing series of 100x150 pixel animated gifs neatly stacked over 40 blog posts? ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=288185#Comment_288185 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=288185#Comment_288185 Sat, 26 Mar 2011 16:52:52 -0700 darrylayo
Do enjoy Freak Angels quite a bit. But I would never have been able to hang in here as a regular reader if it were not for this ingenious format. I read other long-form graphic novel webcomics, and I find the standard format used (ComicPress powered by WordPress, for example) to be tedious and discouraging as a reader.

Part of why I love Freak Angels is because the website is an actual pleasure to use. I hope that you use this system in your next webcomic project. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=288459#Comment_288459 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=288459#Comment_288459 Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:51:50 -0700 buhbuhcuh
The information density of any monitor compared to that of paper. 72 dpi vs ~300 dpi. (Phones and tablets are currently higher density, but iPad2 is still sitting at a measly 132 dip)

I am writing a comic right now that is designed for the web foremost, but with the option for print if it becomes successful. I just finished the first draft of the first chapter's script, and it was written for a "page" that has a 4:3 aspect ratio, no more than 1024 pixels wide.

If this was printed at the same resolution, it would be a "landscape" book, about 3.5 inches wide, and about 2.6 inches tall. (We'll produce the art for print, so it's not a tiny book).

That really informs what I can do with a page - large panels with limited detail. Watching how much dialog I can cram in. The script turned out to be more terse than I was expecting (not a bad thing.)

This is sacrificing a lot, but it should result in a comic that is enjoyable on any monitor or tablet, without having to worry about what downsampling will lose, or what happens to the readers flow on a page they can't see the entirety of.

Screw phones, by the way, I want my comic to take up at least 1/4 of your main perceptive arc when you are reading it. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=288550#Comment_288550 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=288550#Comment_288550 Tue, 29 Mar 2011 08:21:53 -0700 warrenellis Part of why I love Freak Angels is because the website is an actual pleasure to use.

All glory to Ariana on that score, by the way. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=288578#Comment_288578 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=288578#Comment_288578 Tue, 29 Mar 2011 16:55:04 -0700 Tim Simmons I read other long-form graphic novel webcomics, and I find the standard format used (ComicPress powered by WordPress, for example) to be tedious and discouraging as a reader.

Out of curiosity, what don't you like about it? Freakangels is (I believe) running on a highly modded Wordpress layout-- I'm guessing custom coded.

The reason I ask is that I see a lot of Comicpress hate, that I just don't get. It's just a platform, and a highly customizable one at that.
Is it that you've run across webcomics that are widget'ed to death? Or haven't bothered to change anything beyond the stock template? Or is it something else?

Again, just curious-- ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=289081#Comment_289081 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=289081#Comment_289081 Sat, 02 Apr 2011 17:57:22 -0700 darrylayo
@Tim: FreakAngels is built on WordPress, but not with the ComicPress application. I personally DO like ComicPress, but just find it very tiresome to read long sustained novel comics on it. The primary exception for me would be Meredith Gran's Octopus Pie, which the author customized further from the out-of-the-box ComicPress design.

For my purposes as a reader, Comic Press works best with with either comic strips or narratives that are relaxed, not terribly dense, etc. Part of it is usage more than inherent design. Part of it is what is left out of the application. But the design of the application stresses the individual update, ie, one page or strip at a time. Even if you were to update with several pages in sequence, it's a strange experience to completely click to a new website page just to continue a train of thought. Acceptable if you are reading through a series' back archives--pretty uncomfortable to read "live," at the pace that a given cartoonist is able to draw.

I guess it's just the nature of the application that it encourages piecemeal updating. Fine for strips, but it's really hard to stay intellectually and emotionally engaged with longform work.

Full disclosure, my own webcomic was made with ComicPress. Before the site exploded on me. And I thought it was six shades of ugly.

Finally, I wouldn't characterize my feelings of ComicPress as "hate." We all know that hate is a very strong word that should only be used when talking about BlogSpot. ]]> Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=289110#Comment_289110 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=289110#Comment_289110 Sun, 03 Apr 2011 00:32:42 -0700 Brendan McGinley Webcomics And Formats http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=289123#Comment_289123 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9535&Focus=289123#Comment_289123 Sun, 03 Apr 2011 04:54:42 -0700 Ariana