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London Zoo: Anthology Title - Newsprint Comic Magazine - Viable?
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- CommentAuthormjmartinejohn
- CommentTimeMar 16th 2011
Well my brain is tapped. I have had this discussion, and I've had a discussion with Erik Larsen on the topic on twitter, and it seems that the idea is something that would take a lot of money to get off the ground, and when it did, it would not have much of an audience to reach. Still I would be interested to see what might happen if the right backers got behind something like this, like Marvel or DC, and really tried to bring the A-Game to it, flex a little muscle and go for broke.
It might take awhile but I think it could catch on if the stories were solid, the art solid it had something to offer that was a little different then what you regularly get between the pages of a comic magazine. -
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CommentAuthoralexwilson
- CommentTimeMar 16th 2011
@mjmartinejohn
Ditto the responses above (and I'd suggest that any exhaustion you sense with this topic is likely more with the weight of previous discussions here and elsewhere about this kind of thing rather than with any particular point you've contributed).
I recommend checking out McSweeney's, which has tried a model with a few similarities to the one you're talking about. Though they've published comics, I'm thinking specifically of Michael Chabon's attempts to do for genre fiction (whose "woes"/complaints have parallels to comics when compared to more popular publishing) what you're interested in applying to comics. Take a look at Mammoth Treasury of Thrilling Tales and Enchanted Chamber of Astonishing Stories. They've also published on newsprint, but that was for a different project. -
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- CommentAuthormjmartinejohn
- CommentTimeMar 16th 2011
I hadn't thought of Mcsweeney's, that might be interesting, and so is the format of paperback books. Diary of a Wimpy Kid, and a couple of others have done well in that format. Might be interesting. I am tired of constantly being challenged today, and it took a lot out of me, but I think I believe in the idea, and just have to hammer down how to best go about it. -
Okay I might have gone mad
Wellllll you are overreaching yourself. The idea of getting "names" in to write stories is something Mark Millar is exploring with CLiNT, where he has the backing of a big magazine publishers and it is bulked out with rather throwaway articles and reprints of Millar's creator-owned work, plus he has considerable more clout than most people in this game. Despite this, even he hasn't been able to approach your dream line-up.
You can always give the format a shot but I think you are going to need to be a bit more... modest in your aims. -
- CommentAuthorKosmopolit
- CommentTimeMar 17th 2011
Deoes anyone know how Clint is selling? -
- CommentAuthormjmartinejohn
- CommentTimeMar 17th 2011
I have always been modest in my aims with this, but I started to think and wanted to bounce ideas off of people. I've only been creating comics for about two years and don't have a huge understanding about the industry and how it works. I don't have a publishing background, but I have some desire to see some expansion within the industry, so learning what I can can only help me make something modest into something that won't suck, really really badly.
I've had some interest from people who are interested in the format, and I even brought some of the discussion to Mark over on his boards to see what he has to say about his experience with Clint. I will see where that brings this conversation. -
- CommentAuthormjmartinejohn
- CommentTimeMar 17th 2011
This is not impossible, nor is it insane, but how do you make comics mainstream? How do you make North America, and hell, the rest of the world interested in what I believe is one of the best ways of communicating ideas to one another, if not the best.
1. Make it cheaper. Cut costs wherever you can, make the paper cheaper newsprint, make the covers less glossy, cut out the color. Make the magazines bigger, for a price that makes money when it is sold wholesale.
2. Make it more accessible. Magazine distribution in bookstores and specialty shops, but pushing a system where subscription is key. Sell in the direct market as well, with pamphlets in the magazine highlighting local comics shops in the area.
3. Original content and content that has already been published. As long as the book is pushing 200 pages each month then include whatever you can, whatever is amazing and whatever keeps the readers coming back.
4. Content other then comics content, but kept to a dull roar. Add in whatever other things that are interesting to the demographic you are pushing for. Be it fall fashion or video games, as long as it hold the interests of the target market and keeps them coming back.
5. Online presence. Digital copies for digital readers on all platforms. Having too many people reading it is not a bad thing. Day and date release coinciding with the magazine release. Have a google map point to the closest place where you can buy a copy.
6. Celebrity endorsements. Do whatever you can to get the people that like comics involved in them. Give Nic Cage's son another comic to write, give Oprah an endorsed comic book, give Letterman a comedy book, whatever. Tie-in what you can where you can.
All of this makes too much sense to me, why are we not doing things like this? Why does the comics community sit around and bemoan the death of the comic book when they could get off their asses and do something about it.
Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse, IDW, Viz, Boom, Dynamite are you listening? You should be.
I wrote this yesterday. What would you add or change?? -
- CommentAuthormjmartinejohn
- CommentTimeMar 17th 2011 edited
Okay, here is another way to approach it. Does anyone know what the biggest online bookstore, or E-reader is? I've read an article that the kindle kills the market for comics by charging the creator by the megabyte, allowing books to sell at a premium and make money, but sinking larger files (like comics) into something that makes the creator no money at all.
If you create an online monster (I now it is not easy, but it is cheaper as a startup), something that is like what I have been discussing, and then if it becomes popular enough by selling it on whatever bookseller, magazine seller, comic application, etc., move it over into print. and go from there.
As an approach to a magazine/comic this seems like the most appropriate thing to do, the best as far as price goes, and one that would reach a larger market without as much financial risk.
If you made a mock issue of your magazine and brought it around to online booksellers, online magazine sellers, and online magazine apps, as well as making your presence known within the internet with web-based social networking and pages, it could be far more reaching initially. If you make sure that the files that you are producing are printable afterward then you have a step up when you take your ideas to print.
Much more feasible, no? -
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CommentAuthorwarrenellis
- CommentTimeMar 17th 2011
I've only been creating comics for about two years and don't have a huge understanding about the industry and how it works.
Then it's way past time you did your research. You're on the internet, man. It's easier than it's ever been. -
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Deoes anyone know how Clint is selling?
There are no actual sales figures available but I worry sales might be taking quite a hit. There was a big delay after #4 (which will generate fines - this isn't the Direct Market and they aren't tolerant of delays) and a quick informal check suggests that an awful lot of newsagents have dropped the title, possibly leaving them with smaller independent outlets and WH Smiths (who they paid quite a lot of money to for shelf space*). I also can't imagine the erratic line-up has helped, with stories stopping and starting because the next instalment isn't ready. So it makes me a little worried - if CLiNT can't make it, then it might make it very difficult to start another mainstream title for years. It being largely reprint material and poor quality articles probably means the costs are low and it can keep the wheels from falling off for a while but it will be interesting to see the sales numbers when they do emerge (although I can't seem to find circulation figures for any of Titan's magazines so it may be they aren't registered with ABC).
* This seems to be a problem with John Freeman's Strip magazine (the next new mainstream British comic to launch), the newsagents seem to think it is a good idea to gouge publishers rather than make their profits selling the items themselves. -
Much more feasible, no?
My gut tells me an anthology might be the way to go online (I've had a couple of different ideas along that front) but I think the critical factor is that you don't have to think about it as a single physical artefact if you are leading with digital.
For example, you mention the Kindle - I suspect they'll have to compromise on this (after all it isn't like comics contribute much to the Amazon's bandwidth usage, I'd have thought MP3 downloads are the main contributor there) but even if they don't there is a solution, other than trying to jam a 100 page "book" down their constructed pipe. You break the anthology up into the individual stories and use the anthology as a stamp of quality - if you like one story then you know the others will tend to be well edited and up to a certain standard. It does mean each story would have to be relatively self-contained, even if it is part of a larger story but that shouldn't be too much trouble.
Selling the stories individually then means you can set a low price, which does seem to be a key factor as it will lead to impulse sales as people are prepared to take a punt on it. If they like it they could check out other titles you have to offer or they could rummage up the next instalment of the stories. So they would then be able to essentially build their own digital anthology to suit their tastes, which circumvents some of the complaints about anthologies, in that you might end up buying 5 stories but only liking 2 or 3 (however, you could keep the strength of the anthology in that it might encourage people to check out stories they might not usually pick up and they could find they enjoy those too - which is my experience of anthologies, I've discovered great stories I'd have not thought about trying if it was just a random comic book on a shelf). Eventually this could extend to the print version too - I don't believe the technology is quite there yet but you could allow the reader to create their own bespoke volume of stories they like (or offer them a number of pre-mixed volumes) and get the printed out. With something like Lightning Source, you can get in-store POD, so people could specify what they want in the book, punt it over to the shop to print and pick it up an hour or so later when you are passing by (or during your lunch break), the beauty of that being you are also helping to use digital to drive sales to bricks and mortar shops (if comics shops wanted in that'd help them too - you could get help and advice in the shop, start it printing, have a coffee and pick up your book).
10 page nuggets of comics also seems ideal for modern life with our shorter attention spans - you are bored and standing in a queue or on the bus home, then you could summon up a quick blast of comics, rather than having to lay out a lot more money for a 100 page volume you'd have to work your way through. Get your "comix blitz" (just trying out different names), hammer through it, write a quick review or hit a button to recommend it to a friend and then move on to the next thing you were going to do. Keep it quick, cheap and disposable.
You could punt it out through Kindle or iTunes but also have your own web site that has added value (making it easier to find stories by the same author, or a series you were interested in, as well as a larger interactive element where you can write longer reviews, press a button to send a Tweet about a story you liked, that kind of thing. If you get the added value right (perhaps offer DRM-free downloads, free stuff, exclusives) then you can sell the stories directly to the reader, which means you'd take home a much larger slice of the pie.
Soooooooo in summary - going digital and taking an "anthology" approach might give you a lot of flexibility to deliver comics in a range of ways that might just be the "killer app" for this kind of affair (as long as you keep the quality up and costs down). -
- CommentAuthormjmartinejohn
- CommentTimeMar 17th 2011
@warren Doing that. The comics journal has a pretty extensive history of direct market publishing as well as how a lot of other print options work, plus other articles. I do have a rough idea to start out with, just not years and years of experience.
@emperor Thanks for that. That is entirely helpful in so many ways. There are a lot of useful chunks of information and ideas to absorb in your comments. I love the idea of an anthology that you can edit and explore, it takes all good points out of the anthology and drops some of the bad. Self-contained stories were mentioned when I was talking to Erik, who bemoaned the fact that you could no longer get cheap self-contained stories in comics, but it turns out that there can be a way of doing that. Also, the idea of POD anthologies with the stories you want in them makes a lot of sense as well. While it might be more expensive for the consumer, it allows them to tailor make something to their specified needs, or to tailor make something for someone they are buying for.
The idea of a flagship anthology/distributor that you can blanket the stories under is a great idea as well.
Next up is genre. Do you go there? I foolishly started thinking about "Chicken Soup" books and how the stories all relate to one idea, or common theme. I think that might be interesting to think about, allowing whatever creators involved to make what they would with a theme, in whatever way they would want to tell it. The Universality of the common themes might appeal to a broader base, allowing people to pick and choose from themes that they are interested in.
That might allow for tie-ins to sports (one page stories about national athletes ghost written and drawn), politics (coverage of what is happening on a national level down to a municipal one, or interesting stories involving), true life adventure (128 hours like things), plus whatever else that may cause interest in the general public. -
- CommentAuthormjmartinejohn
- CommentTimeMar 17th 2011
All going well. I don't know the US newsstand market at all so can't advise, but 60% of mags now sold through supermarkets, which was the big surprise to me. WH Smith makes up the bulk of our remainder and then some mags sold through independent stores and places like HMV. We also do a good biz in comic stores, which I hadn't even considered when we we were starting out, but I guess a few quid for the equivalent of 3 or 4 American comics is a nice price point.
MM
Direct from the mouth of the man in charge. -
One of the other pluses of doing a digital anthology broken up into parts is you avoid one of the big downsides, getting everything in for a specific day. Tharg makes it look easy with 2000 AD, but as CLiNT shows it can be tricky. If you break your anthology up you can even use this as a strength releasing stories over a few weeks so keeping the news rolling in, rather than just one big hit, then silence until the next one. One of my ideas (for a themed anthology) was just to use a blog and post a page a day (and make any cash off a print collection). However, being able to release a story and get people to pay for it on a range of platforms has certainly moved on a bit in recent years and is at the point where it is a viable option.
Next up is genre. Do you go there? I foolishly started thinking about "Chicken Soup" books and how the stories all relate to one idea, or common theme. I think that might be interesting to think about, allowing whatever creators involved to make what they would with a theme, in whatever way they would want to tell it. The Universality of the common themes might appeal to a broader base, allowing people to pick and choose from themes that they are interested in.
Basically you have two general approaches*:- You can go for a more classic anthology, so you have continuing characters with more self-contained stories which might build up a larger story. This is a good way of going that'd allow you to hook the reader in and turn them into a repeat visitor. You might want a bit of an over-arching idea so it'd be genre-based or autobiographical or some other broad brush approach, so people would know what to expect so they wouldn't jump from a splatterpunk western to a gentle love story about two owls.
- You can make it themed and then you have the optioned of putting out a trade paperback that could have wider appeal outside of comics, so Image's Outlaw Territory would have possible crossover with fans of the western, Accent UK puts out a themed anthology once or twice a year and is doing their second one on zombies as the first one clearly proved popular with comics buyers and horror fans. I do like this idea but my personal preference would be to freak things up a bit and make the theme suitably weird or enticing that creators would feel they had to contribute and the readers would be intrigued in what direction the next story would go. I also had the idea of a shared universe anthology that was big and varied enough to accommodate a range of genres and ideas. So plenty of ways you can run with that one.
I think either approach can work as long as you stick to it. As a reader I know I'd be interested in checking out something like that (as long as it wasn't all owl love stories I suppose), but, then again, I have been mulling this whole thing over for a while now so I suspect I'm biased.
* You could also make it a bit of a free-for-all like Popgun (and possibly Flight), which also seems to do well. -
- CommentAuthormjmartinejohn
- CommentTimeMar 18th 2011
Thanks for the food for thought guys. I will continue to pursue this. An interesting sidenote, I went and saw Joe Sacco speak last night and he stated that he once tried to put out a monthly, but the comics people hated it for what it was and it sold shit, and then he released it in GN format in bookstores and it sold well. I think there is something to say for that. He sells a chunk of comics to non comic readers every year.
Why is that? A different topic and genre? Food for thought. -
Short prose stories and short films are less popular than long works in either medium, and the same seems to be true of comics. One reason may be that each is associated with the novice creator, and audiences at large have no particular investment in such unless they're really committed to the artform. 2000AD is a notable exception, following as it does in the British tradition of anthology titles for children (Beano, Dandy, etc). Maybe young audiences are less swayed by received notions of a creator's popularity (writers and artists were uncredited in British humour titles for years) than the sheer enjoyability of their work.
youdothatvoodoo -- enthusiastic about comics, films, tv, and the business of writing -
Stumbled across this discussion meandering across the threads tonight. As coincidence, synchronicity, what have you, would have it, I initiated an experiment earlier this week which relates in terms of creating a less expensive product. I use the POD model, put out novels and comic books, and have used both lulu and Ka-Blam. For single issue comics, the Ka-Blam/IndyPlanet option has worked for me. I find Lulu better for the novels, and the two comparable for color collections.
Lulu offers a couple of publisher grade paper options for books, less expensive paper than the rest of their books (once wondered about the "cheap" newsprint comic book idea myself, but saw it brought up many times - and shot down many times). This seemed a slightly better option. The size selection using this paper is limited. Closest to comic size dimension-wize is a 5.5 x 8.5 size, sort of small. However, with a small margin I can put out a 123 page black and white book for $4.99.
I bundled 5 comic books under one cover - calling it The Glow-in-the-Dark Radio Comics Sampler - 5 comic books for under 5 bucks. It's an experiment - I have not yet received the proof copy. Can't tell you if the reproduction is quality and if the text is all readable at the slightly smaller size. Now that I know it may be germane to this discussion, I'll report back and let you know how it looks when it arrives, probably Monday.
If it does work out, I may try some bundle of the digital versions of the books with the print version, still pondering that.
If curious, here's the book on lulu: http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-glow-in-the-dark-radio-comics-sampler-2011/15150477 -
- CommentAuthormjmartinejohn
- CommentTimeMar 20th 2011
Can't really beat that price with a stick now can you. I'm wondering about lettering and how it holds up under such small sizes? What font size did you use for the lettering?
But this is quite interesting. It gives me some hope.
Ah, for a free webmaster, and a free graphic designer, and some free content. Alas, nothing is free in this world and all my money is tied up in making comics.
One day or other. -
However, with a small margin I can put out a 123 page black and white book for $4.99.
That is pretty impressive, it'd suggest you can actually make a bit on a cheaper B&W digest volume.
Let us know how it goes. -
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CommentAuthorstaticgirl
- CommentTimeMar 21st 2011
a gentle love story about two owls
awwwww
*gets card out*
Interesting discussion... -
This discussion has been inactive for longer than 5 days, and doesn't want to be resurrected.