Not signed in (Sign In)
Categories
- Main Junction
- CROSSED
- London Zoo
- Freakangels
- Music
- Printheads
- Culturegasm
- Web Nuggets
- WorldWeird
- Blogs
Welcome, Guest
Vanilla is a product of Lussumo:
Documentation and Support.
This discussion has been inactive for longer than 5 days, and doesn't want to be resurrected.
London Zoo: [Closed] Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan
Bottom of Page-
-
CommentAuthorCat Vincent
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2011 edited
Even with UBL dead, AQ-as-franchise isn't going away. That's a longer fight, but no doubt this is an important symbolic act. The triumphalism is a bit disgusting, but understandable. The opinion on that I'm really waiting for is that of 4GW experts like John Robb.
What really bothers me is disposing of the body before confirming the ID. Even if it's just a field-expedient fuckup, it gives too much credence to any opposing conspiracy narrative that could otherwise have been squashed, hard. -
-
That certainly didn't take long: Here come the Deathers and look who's leading the parade.
-
-
CommentAuthordoclivingston
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2011 edited
They confirmed the ID before the sea burial. Obama nor the military would dick around with that.
ETA linky. -
-
- CommentAuthorgovernment spy
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2011
Perhaps I stretched the comparisons of daily murders a bit too far. I guess I meant to stress that senseless murders should have more of a horrified response than a military operation that actually made sense for once. Soldiers kill in the name of our country... well, that's kind of their job. They do it all of the time, and usually get far less recognition for it. No one is celebrating the death of Al Qaeda operative #7 when a US sniper takes him out, nor is anyone horrified by it anymore.
Maybe I'm a bit too jaded to feel horrified at the death of Bin Laden. I'm not all jumping for joy at it either; I think being disgusted by parading fanfare is a healthy response. I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I feel satisfied that the man is dead, but not joyous or saddened by it either. -
Has anyone actually seen Osama since that cave complex in Afghanistan got reamed out however many years ago? I know there's been some audio but have there been any good pictures or video? It's always handy to have a nice, easily identifiable figurehead, helps us to know who to cheer and who to boo.
Still, it's nice to know that things will start getting better now that we've killed the evil mastermind who led the evil global terrorist organisation. Maybe i'll finally get my flying car. -
@roadscum
I believe they have had video of him since. -
Some of the internet memey shite that's been produced is interesting as as a window on this. Without necessarily condemning or condoning, but presenting as found artefacts, maybe we could dump a few of them here too.
-
@Ren Thing:
Nice to know. Thanks.
I'd better get down the showrooms for that car then, i expect there'll be a bit of a rush on. -
Protip: People will believe in conspiracy theories if they want to believe in them. Doesn't matter what the theory is, whether it makes sense, or what evidence exists.
-
- CommentAuthorChris Noble
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2011 edited
@government spy
I'm not at all sure you were replying to me, earlier. But what the hell, I'll dive in, with sincere apologies if I'm incorrect in my assumption:
I don't think killing bin Laden was more horrible than the many senseless murders that occur every day. Of course I don't. Never said that, even. If it helps to say I'm more horrified by that, then consider it said. Although I'm not sure that has to be said.
And of course I know what the job of the military is: I've been watching them do that job from the comfort of my living room for the past several years.
And again, the job- this time, anyway- was necessary. I wish like hell it hadn't been, but it was. But the thing itself? It's a terrible thing. I not only feel no elation... I feel no satisfaction. Like I said, I'm not crying for him. In fact, I'm not 100% sure I'm accurately describing my feelings on this at all.
But killing, no matter how necessary it is, is a terrible thing.
Man, I'm not sure I'm making sense at all...
ETA: Something about the reactions makes me uneasy, and I'm not at all certain what. I'm just thinking out loud, trying to figure out what that something is. -
-
CommentAuthordoclivingston
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2011
WaPo has a good run down of the development of intelligence that went into the operation, Obama's decision-making, and the actual operation itself.
It's a good reminder of how much better it is to make rational, informed decisions based on compelling evidence and only after several discussions with others. Versus, you know... going with your gut. A la Bush. -
-
@Government Spy - I haven't really heard of anyone be horrified at the death of OBL - personally that is, maybe this would be in the Muslim, a bit more anti- than pro-America world. But I have heard a few people be dismayed at the people gathering outside the White House, chanting USA! USA! and generally celebrating. Myself, I feel completely blank at that reaction. I don't feel disgusted or overjoyed by it. This isn't a sentiment that I feel should be more common - actually I wonder what that means about me.
It's not a First Amendment matter to be horrified by the people celebrating - you have the right to say what you have to say. And I have the right to hold you accountable, judge your personality based on what you say and determine how I will treat with you due to what you said. I just don't have the right to prevent you from saying the things you wanted to say. (NB "you" here is a general You, not anyone specific on this thread.)
So I can't speak to being horrified by his death or anyone else near to me who may feel that way. But death is always unfortunate. I always believe that even if I don't always feel it. Despite my brothers' service in the Army I continue my opposition to war and disagree with the insistence that we are entitled to swift, violent retribution. They (my bros) didn't ask me when they signed up and we never talked about it. It had been a simmering pot of warring emotions - fear for them, frustration at what they would have to do, despair at the horrors they would have to face - and in many ways still is. I don't know when or how I could ever make a comprehensive account of my feelings on their service.
I grew up with my dad - a born storyteller - telling us of his time in the Navy during WW2. My uncles also served; but they were all drafted. Between them all they somehow raised me to be appreciate the importance of life. Indeed, it's because of my dad's wonder at life that comes through his stories that I've come to this position of a commitment to peace and non-violence. So... I guess in defense of the position that all life is worthy, I ask for some appreciation that this position wasn't arrived at lightly. -
- CommentAuthorKPatrickGlover
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2011
@Chris Noble
It regards to the dancing in the streets level of reaction, it may help to realize that Bin Laden has been demonized to a point that he no longer represents (represented) an actual person. The Seals didn't kill a human being, they slayed a dragon. -
- CommentAuthorBOODOFFSTAGE
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2011
Something about the reactions makes me uneasy @ CHRIS NOBLE.
First of all, Osama dead. Great. Put a mark it on the check list, a toast for a job well done, take a vacation. etc.
Got no problem that fucker went down in a shower of bullets. Seems almost poetic.
However...
I cant speak for you Chris Noble, but when I saw the images of cheering in the streets for the death of Osama, it reminded me of the images of the people cheering on the streets when the Twin towers toppled.
I don't think I ever felt such outright hatred towards a group of people that I knew very little about because they were cheering the death of american citizens. Didn't like it.
I dont know, cheering in the streets should be reserved for positive occurances, winning the superbowl. legalizing marijuana:)
but for negative stuff like terrorism, death, political assassination etc. Seems crass at best. -
@256: i believe one thing and one thing only; THE BASTARDS LIE, all of 'em.
This little episode may have some small effect on whether a lad from the estate down the road gets his legs blown off in Afghanistan or elsewhere, or whether his brother can find a job when he leaves school, but it will be a small effect, very small.
I don't follow these things to closely but from what i can gather, much of the current 'Arab Spring' unrest has been fuelled by rises in fuel and food prices, things which also have some bearing on the situation here and in the US. These price increases have been brought about by, amongst other things, deregulation and speculation by futures traders. I don't believe that Osama, alive or long dead, had much effect on that. Someone did though.
Ever seen that trick with the three shells and a pea? When things are moving around fast enough, it's almost impossible to keep track of what's going on. That's why it's so important to keep people clearly focussed on who are the good guys and who are the bad, to make sure they're all concentrating on the big fight. So they don't notice when you sell the sofa they're sitting on.
Right, i'm off down the shops to buy some more tinfoil, me hat's just blown off. -
@Boodoffstage
I cant speak for you Chris Noble, but when I saw the images of cheering in the streets for the death of Osama, it reminded me of the images of the people cheering on the streets when the Twin towers toppled.
Point of fact #1 - The people in the Twin Towers committed no crime against the people of Afghanistan, Pakistan, or which ever country the people you saw belonged to. They were victims.
Point of fact #2 - Osama admitted his responsibility gladly and took joy in the misery and suffering he caused.
There might've been death and cheering involved but the reasons behind the cheering, and the death, are worlds apart.
That being said, I'm not going to comment on the reactions of people in New York or those people who were friends and families of 9-11; their reactions are their own part of their grieving experience and I'd no more tell an Irish wake to keep it down or be more serious or a quiet, somber funeral to lighten up. -
- CommentAuthorKPatrickGlover
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2011
@RenThing
You bring up an excellent point. When 9/11 happened, I was living in Lancaster County, PA, about a half hour from where Flight 93 went down. No matter how hard I struggle to be, this is not a topic I seem to be able to be objective about. -
@KPatricGlover
That's completely understandable. I can understand people finding such celebrations crass, and I don't disagree with the MLK quote that's going around either, but it's not for me to tell someone else that their particular emotional way of dealing with a situation is inappropriate, regardless of my opinions of their reaction. -
-
CommentAuthorBrianMowrey
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2011
My observation on the celebrating is that this obviously took us embarrassingly long to do, and it makes us look like we have pretty low expectations of our ability to be so breathless about it finally happening today instead of any other day. Like, if someone takes ten years to repair their own car, maybe they are happy about finishing, but one thing you know is they ain't no mechanic. In the history of Earth no military or intelligence organization has had the budget, experience, resources, and sustained manpower as the US of the last decade. Most manhunts dont get the help of satellites. And this is what we clap our hands over achieving with it. But, I have an obsession over decorum, this isn't a moral judgement on the celebration.
On a similar note, the comments from some pundits that this will send a firm chill down the spine of future terrorist organizers.. What the fuck are they smoking? So, the lesson that will utterly cow our future enemies is, "fuck with us and you will... continue to live for ten years and then be killed in a quick firefight!!" yes, a fate SO HORRIBLE that Arabs who've spent the last nine years being tortured in Guantanamo without trial simply because they happened to be wearing a casio watch when Uncle Sam stormed their village must today be thinking, 'Shit, thank God I wasn't that guy.'
Stupid fuckin pundits. -
-
@BrianMowrey - I dunno, history is full of people, even fairly important leaders, who've escaped forever. Owain Glynd?r is the first that springs to mind. Despite sometimes feeling otherwise, this planet is still a pretty big place, even when you've narrowed your search down to two countries. Add a significant budget to that and the possibility of elements in a national government of a country you're not supposed to be in, sheltering you, and yeah, it could take its time. And sure, you've got the help of satellites that can cover a lot of the areas you're searching, but people still have to go through the information they provide. It's not like they can manage automatic facial recognition on a near vertical plane from space yet. Well, maybe they can, but I'd be surprised. I'm kinda surprised he didn't make it to South America or somewhere like that, given the time he's had though.
This discussion has been inactive for longer than 5 days, and doesn't want to be resurrected.