Whitechapel - Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan

Whitechapel - Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla & Feed Publisher Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292664#Comment_292664 2011-05-01T19:57:49-07:00 2011-05-01T21:21:48-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

Whether it turns out to be Osama's head on a platter, or Obama telling Trump to chill the fuck out... let's watch this develop, what do you say, Whitechapel?

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292665#Comment_292665 2011-05-01T20:07:28-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75

...sorry, what?

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292666#Comment_292666 2011-05-01T20:08:11-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 lampcommander http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4529

Apparently the former

Apparently the former]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292667#Comment_292667 2011-05-01T20:08:40-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

Osama Bin Laden is officially dead, killed by CIA operation outside Islamabad, the US has his body. !

!]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292668#Comment_292668 2011-05-01T20:09:18-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 chainsaw.serenade http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4906

I would just like the president's statement to start now.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292669#Comment_292669 2011-05-01T20:10:50-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

Less important but more hilarious: the news coverage broke into the new episode of Celebrity Apprentice. Sorry Donald!

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292670#Comment_292670 2011-05-01T20:14:43-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

On the 8th anniversary of "Mission Accomplished," no less.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292671#Comment_292671 2011-05-01T20:17:26-07:00 2011-05-01T20:20:15-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220

This timing is VERY SUSPICIOUS. Clearly Obama is trying to distract america from looking at his academic record more closely! [Edit]I kind of want the sum total of his statement to be 'we got the ...

[Edit]I kind of want the sum total of his statement to be 'we got the bitch.' And then immediately leaves.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292672#Comment_292672 2011-05-01T20:18:49-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 lampcommander http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4529

I've had one friend on facebook comment on the negative aspects of the "war on terror," and already has gotten slammed again and again by people for daring to speak against 9/11 victims. ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292673#Comment_292673 2011-05-01T20:23:07-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

Holy crap this statement is never happening...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292674#Comment_292674 2011-05-01T20:24:50-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Akiramich http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3613

I imagine right now Osama is confused as to where all the virgins on... I'd like to think the delay in a statement from President Obama is because of THE CIGARETTE OF VICTORY!!!

I'd like to think the delay in a statement from President Obama is because of THE CIGARETTE OF VICTORY!!!]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292675#Comment_292675 2011-05-01T20:25:37-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 lampcommander http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4529

hahaha it's like watching an american idol finale

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292676#Comment_292676 2011-05-01T20:25:43-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

Al Jazeera's Livestream is doing a good job of reporting it for now (though the correspondent's interviewee did just joke that he's just "killing time until Obama's speech starts).

Al Jazeera's Livestream is doing a good job of reporting it for now (though the correspondent's interviewee did just joke that he's just "killing time until Obama's speech starts).]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292677#Comment_292677 2011-05-01T20:28:31-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 StefanJ http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=961

Good riddance. I hope this gets us out of Afghanistan quicker.

I hope this gets us out of Afghanistan quicker.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292679#Comment_292679 2011-05-01T20:34:08-07:00 2011-05-01T20:34:27-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

I doubt it. Bin Laden hasn't been in Afghanistan for years, I'm certain. The current Afghanistan war has as much to do with 9/11 as Patton's campaign in Africa had to do with Pearl Harbor.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292680#Comment_292680 2011-05-01T20:34:50-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366

Ditto to StefanJ's comments.

StefanJ's comments.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292681#Comment_292681 2011-05-01T20:36:15-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

Here we go, here we go, here we go: http://www.whitehouse.gov/live?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292682#Comment_292682 2011-05-01T20:37:42-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

(Obama is speaking...) Meanwhile, Bin Laden's primarily been in Pakistan in all likelihood, skirting the border with Afghanistan. And what this definitely does is remove a HUGE chunk of the ...

Meanwhile, Bin Laden's primarily been in Pakistan in all likelihood, skirting the border with Afghanistan. And what this definitely does is remove a HUGE chunk of the threadbare reasons for approval of our continued presence in Afghanistan. Getting Osama is going to be seen as some sort of victory condition for many people eager to see our military return home. I won't be surprised if that effects our withdrawal timeline or not, just saying.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292683#Comment_292683 2011-05-01T20:50:24-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

Well. That could have gone worse. So... a firefight, eh? Not a drone strike? That's interesting in and of itself. Guess they wanted to make abso-fucking-lutely sure they'd gotten him.

So... a firefight, eh? Not a drone strike? That's interesting in and of itself. Guess they wanted to make abso-fucking-lutely sure they'd gotten him.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292684#Comment_292684 2011-05-01T20:51:32-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 James Cunningham http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925

D'oh! Tuned back in just in time to catch the equivalent of "Thank you and I'm going to bed". I'll catch the official announcement once it's on the Youtubes, I guess, although I'm sure if ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292685#Comment_292685 2011-05-01T20:53:35-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 StefanJ http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=961

Breaking: Donald Trump is demanding to see the long form death certificate.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292686#Comment_292686 2011-05-01T20:55:16-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 SteadyUP http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5302

Looks like someone's getting reelected.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292687#Comment_292687 2011-05-01T20:58:25-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

@SteadyUP: Oh, I certainly hope so. But, let's remember that he's a Democrat, and there's nothing Democrats do better than snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Nevertheless, it's certainly a ...

Nevertheless, it's certainly a medal on his chest.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292689#Comment_292689 2011-05-01T20:59:46-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 lampcommander http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4529

I'm going to go ahead and call it: there will be books and movies made. #duh

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292690#Comment_292690 2011-05-01T21:04:05-07:00 2011-05-01T21:04:51-07:00 SteadyUP http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5302

A drone would've been one thing, but it's crazy to me to think that there's a guy somewhere out there that actually walked into a house and put a bullet in him. Imagine being that guy right now.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292691#Comment_292691 2011-05-01T21:09:49-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Neila http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5582

Wow. Just. I'm glad I didn't turn in early after getting home from the convention this weekend. @lampcommander I predict those movies will be blockbusters, at least in the U.S.

@lampcommander I predict those movies will be blockbusters, at least in the U.S.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292693#Comment_292693 2011-05-01T21:16:37-07:00 2011-05-01T21:17:41-07:00 James Cunningham http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925

Oh Fox News, you rascals! /disclaimer- it's an easy typo to make, especially when in a hurry.

Oh Fox News, you rascals!

/disclaimer- it's an easy typo to make, especially when in a hurry.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292694#Comment_292694 2011-05-01T21:20:06-07:00 2011-05-01T21:20:42-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

Typo my muscular buttocks. I'd know that news header any day.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292695#Comment_292695 2011-05-01T21:20:41-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 SteadyUP http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5302

Yeah, they always seem to manage that one when it counts.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292696#Comment_292696 2011-05-01T21:21:55-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

any one know how to make pizza from scratch? oops wrong thread

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292697#Comment_292697 2011-05-01T21:23:08-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

Hey Apathy, you just made me almost fall out of bed from laughter. Thanks - I need that!

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292702#Comment_292702 2011-05-01T21:36:17-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Finagle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254

This is where the Dems need to take a page from the Republican playbook: Declare victory in the War on Terror.

Declare victory in the War on Terror.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292703#Comment_292703 2011-05-01T21:38:17-07:00 2011-05-01T21:46:54-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272

This is a C-Span link to the actual speech, though it's catch as catch can at this time if the video actually plays. I imagine it is getting hammered by traffic right ...

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/LateN

Video and a complete transcript also here.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292705#Comment_292705 2011-05-01T21:45:20-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 D.Miranda http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=345

@James Cunningham: hopefully Fox News have apologized? This is a serious mistake, no matter what.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292707#Comment_292707 2011-05-01T21:49:50-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 lampcommander http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4529

Bin Laden compound already mapped to Google plus Guess what also happened once on May 1st?

Bin Laden compound already mapped to Google

plus
Guess what also happened once on May 1st?]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292708#Comment_292708 2011-05-01T21:54:42-07:00 2011-05-01T21:59:59-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75

Any jokes I said, I said on twitter. And any speculation on how this hits Obama's administration from a public relations standpoint has already been talked about 100 times. As a Canadian who might ...

But I'm going to congratulate the US on achieving much-needed closure on a hunt that was more symbolic than anything. You're always going to have the threat to your country. It will always be there. But I'm glad that the hope and confidence to overcome it all has been brought to you.

I have a HELL of a lot more to say, but it's neither the time or place. I'll just leave it at that.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292709#Comment_292709 2011-05-01T21:57:54-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 KeeperofManyNames http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3394

My entire college campus is out rallying and celebrating, apparently. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here finishing the final draft of a paper on Art Spiegelman's In The Shadow Of No Towers. It's all very ...

Meanwhile, I'm sitting here finishing the final draft of a paper on Art Spiegelman's In The Shadow Of No Towers. It's all very surreal.

I found it interesting that the Al Jazeera corespondents were tending to suggest that this was not a profound tactical victory, no matter what its value as a political victory is. But, I suppose that the political victory might be the one that ultimately counts, and if the rest of the country decides to celebrate as one, just like the folks on campus seem to be, well... I suppose that can only be a step in the right direction.

If we're really lucky, perhaps this will be a moment of celebration for the entire world. Obama certainly framed his speech that way, which I think was an excellent strategy.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292711#Comment_292711 2011-05-01T22:00:29-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Ananzitusq http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3262

The blood lust on my facebook feed disturbs me.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292712#Comment_292712 2011-05-01T22:03:37-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 lampcommander http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4529

oh? Check out the comment feed on the youtube video for everyone's favorite song

everyone's favorite song]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292713#Comment_292713 2011-05-01T22:08:29-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 shining_lion http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=976

I'm a Yankee, and I don't celebrate a death. Not a one. Not even his. So Robin, chances are, you're not alone in your thoughts.

So Robin, chances are, you're not alone in your thoughts.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292714#Comment_292714 2011-05-01T22:23:44-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 KPatrickGlover http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1471

This is one death I am celebrating and I don't believe it's symbolic in any way. I don't, however, think of it as having anything to do with war. I find it far more analogous to something like the ...

I don't, however, think of it as having anything to do with war. I find it far more analogous to something like the Manson Family killings. Bin Laden was a crazed leader of a group of fanatical followers. He planned a mass murder and they carried it out. Finally, we got him. We got the bad guy.

Now, can we forget the war shit and resume our lives?]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292715#Comment_292715 2011-05-01T22:26:50-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 agentarsenic http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2955

Robin and Lion, I agree. So...

]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292716#Comment_292716 2011-05-01T22:28:13-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 oddbill http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4272

I have no problem celebrating a death like this. My only regret is that he was so long in the killing. There is no scenario in which the world was better with him alive in it. There are a few ...

My only regret is that he was so long in the killing.

There is no scenario in which the world was better with him alive in it. There are a few more that could go and may the gates of hell hit them in the ass on the way in.

Most people, even bad people, don't deserve to have their deaths celebrated. But this one... I'm headed out for a beer right now.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292717#Comment_292717 2011-05-01T22:31:48-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 James Cunningham http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925

I'm American, I "get it", but yeah, this is nothing more than symbolic. Just because it'd be nice if this meant something doesn't mean it actually means much of anything. Still, nice to ...

Still, nice to get that bit of business finally taken care of.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292718#Comment_292718 2011-05-01T22:37:41-07:00 2011-05-01T22:41:35-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088

I personally don't feel the need to celebrate the man's death, though I don't begrudge anyone who does. Celebrating the death of an enemy is a long-standing tradition of war. Granted, this is not a ...

Bin Laden was the enemy, at least at some point in the past he was the relevant enemy. I think it's important to acknowledge the difference between the fact that having this man out of the picture is a good thing (even though retaliation of some sort is assured, but these are the same people who will retaliate with muder for the burning of a holy book), the death of Bin Laden will most likely have no impact on Al Qaeda's operations, or the tactics of the opposition in Iraq or Afghanistan.

If any negative outcome will occur, most likely it would have happened anyways (having been a previously planned operation) just with the dedication to Bin Laden tacked on at the last minute. I don't see a terrorist attack being orchestrated purely for revenge on the death of their former leader. Although, I wouldn't be surprised to see those ideas used in a political forum to make some sort of armchair general comments against the president from his detractors.

In general, I think it was the correct move not to apprehend Bin Laden, we already do not have a clear concept of what to do with the Guantanamo Bay prisoners, throwing Bin Laden in there would have turned an already confusing situation into a political disaster. At the end if the day, it is important to remember that this is war, and I think our Commander in Chief made the right call, and that he's finally starting to act like a Commander in Chief.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292720#Comment_292720 2011-05-01T22:41:34-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220

The thing is, that as much as it's only a 'symbolic' victory for America, it's also a pretty big symbolic defeat for Al-Qaeda. And 'if you kill American citizens, we will take our time, find out ...

And 'if you kill American citizens, we will take our time, find out where you live, and come into your home at the crack of dawn and kill you ' is a much scarier message than 'if you kill American citizens, we will spend hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of American, Afghani, and Iraqi lives, and bomb the shit out of two countries and still not get you.']]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292722#Comment_292722 2011-05-01T22:44:22-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 initiatezao http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9321

How to take care of the national debt and Amercia's bloodlust in three simple steps: Step 1) Inject Silicone into bin-laden's freshly dead corpse to make him like one of those "body ...

Step 1) Inject Silicone into bin-laden's freshly dead corpse to make him like one of those "body alive" monsters.
Step 2) Tour his body around the country with headlining musical guest Kid Rock singing the National Anthem over and over for 4 hours.
Step 3) Charge $20 to throw an apple pie at Osama's corpse.

4 months tops, debt gone.

tomas]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292723#Comment_292723 2011-05-01T22:48:53-07:00 2011-05-01T23:08:26-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75

[Edit: Yeah. OVERREACTION. But in my defence I've had more than a few "fuck you, freedom-hater" comments on twitter and have been left a little edgy, even while attempting to read the tone ...

Okay, I'm going to clarify because I'm getting a certain impression here after my words and the clip of "sympathy for the devil" actually did a good job of annoying me despite it being a joke.

I do NOT have a problem with him dying and understand that there was no realistic outcome where he would be alive. I do NOT have a problem with people other than myself celebrating his death. I just PERSONALLY can't find it in myself to celebrate a death. That is just ME. You are welcome to feel different about it and I am not going to attempt to change your mind on it because that's your personal feeling on it.

as the saying goes, "While I disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it".]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292725#Comment_292725 2011-05-01T22:57:12-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088

@oldhat Hope you didn't get that impression from me. You stated your opinion, I stated mine, I have no arguement with what you believe, I don't think there's anything wrong with valuing life in ...

Hope you didn't get that impression from me. You stated your opinion, I stated mine, I have no arguement with what you believe, I don't think there's anything wrong with valuing life in that fashion, I don't think anyone's even slightly suggesting that you are wrong or that your opinion is invalid. It's definitely a touchy subject with many possible feelings to come out strong on either side. If it needs saying, I respect your beliefs and your opinions, and hope no one is crude enough to make you feel uncomfortable stating them.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292726#Comment_292726 2011-05-01T22:59:47-07:00 2011-05-01T23:06:27-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75

Gov, oh god, no. I actually really agreed with what you had to say and you worded it better than I ever could. I just wanted to clear the air that I wasn't thinking anyone was being a jerk for ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292727#Comment_292727 2011-05-01T23:07:29-07:00 2011-05-01T23:08:13-07:00 DavidLejeune http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4220

It's a tricky time to say anything that can be even remotely construed as sympathy for Bin Laden (and I completely get that you're not actually expressing any sympathy). It's perfectly reasonable ...

It's perfectly reasonable to consider dancing in the streets over a human life ending being kind of crass, but for this person in particular people are going to take offence at the statement, no matter it's intention, or for whom it's meant to apply. Once the emotions run down a bit people will be more reasonable about it. Or at least, most people will. Hopefully. There will likely be a large segment of the American population who will enshrine 5/1/2011 to the same degree that 9/11/2001 has been. Most people HERE will be more reasonable about it, let's say.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292729#Comment_292729 2011-05-01T23:13:43-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 johnjones http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1052

This made me smile...

]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292730#Comment_292730 2011-05-01T23:19:25-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 initiatezao http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9321

What would happen if Osama rose from the dead in three days? Isn't the anti-Christ supposed to be showing up? Then again it might just be a zombie outbreak.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292732#Comment_292732 2011-05-01T23:34:02-07:00 2011-05-01T23:36:01-07:00 razrangel http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2075

Gov Spy said most of what I would have wanted to say. Gut reaction was a lot snarkier and I owe my brother (airborne infantry, in Afghanistan in 08 - very nasty time) an apology. about 15 minutes ...

Gut reaction was a lot snarkier and I owe my brother (airborne infantry, in Afghanistan in 08 - very nasty time) an apology. about 15 minutes after I heard the news on the radio he texted me the news. He was a little more on the "Go America!" side but not obnoxious, at least not to me. But I still couldn't resist writing "Ten years well spent."

Ugh. I just deleted a big paragraph of criticism and my feelings on it taking so long. I think shit was mismanaged, and everyone suffered because of it. Moving on.

I had to think over the fact of the matter. Someone on "our side" pulled the trigger in our name to kill a man. I don't take this lightly. No one should. I don't think there is any right to vengeance. I don't believe capital punishment is just. But I was considering this in terms of St Thomas Aquinas's principles of double effect and just war. And while I'm thinking double effect just doesn't work here, just war does and this was a necessary act within the context of the war.

I think people have a right to be relieved that this man-who-was-a-symbol is gone. Symbols have power. And this one called himself our enemy and did what he could to encourage anyone who heard him to kill us - and practically everyone else around the world who didn't believe as they did. Perhaps it will be worse if he becomes considered a martyr. Perhaps without his leadership others will not feel so emboldened and/or righteous enough to carry out such massive attacks. Hard to say.

It's a hard thing to realize as an adult, that the right thing to do and the necessary thing to do are not always the same thing. This one time they were.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292736#Comment_292736 2011-05-02T00:13:29-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 nick3pointone4 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4092

doesn't bother me at all, had to be done. big boys' rules and he knew the score when he turned on uncle sam. world's better off without him, and now we have a few weeks of obnoxious post-911 faux ...

yippee]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292737#Comment_292737 2011-05-02T00:30:14-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Jon Wake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1684

I'm really looking forward to how Fox plays this as a victory for Bush. Don't you know the military victories take ten years to reach Main Street?

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292741#Comment_292741 2011-05-02T00:49:02-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Foamhead http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8779

(In an odd display of synchronicity with 9/11, I woke-up just as this was breaking on the news channels.) Now they're reporting he was buried at sea? Polite way of saying he was dropped from ...

Now they're reporting he was buried at sea? Polite way of saying he was dropped from 30000 feet out of the back of a Hercules cargo plane, mid-Atlantic/Pacific?]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292742#Comment_292742 2011-05-02T01:03:14-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 SilentObjector http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2587

@Fookwit, Polite way of saying he was thrown in a ditch and pissed on by the entire United States Armed Forces and the Joint Chiefs Of Staff.

Polite way of saying he was thrown in a ditch and pissed on by the entire United States Armed Forces and the Joint Chiefs Of Staff.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292743#Comment_292743 2011-05-02T01:12:10-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Foamhead http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8779

]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292744#Comment_292744 2011-05-02T01:32:07-07:00 2011-05-02T01:35:20-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

@ Alan- it took me a few hours but I put some spagetti sauce and cheese on bread and toasted it, I think we could all use a bit of pizza these days

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292746#Comment_292746 2011-05-02T01:40:16-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Purple Wyrm http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6726

I guess I'm with Oldhat on this one in that I'm personally loath to celebrate someone getting killed - but at least some kind of justice has been served and a dangerous, murderous individual ...

I was going to speculate on what they'd do with the body, but burial at sea seems like an extremely sensible option.

Chapter ended. Now we wait for the next chapter to begin.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292747#Comment_292747 2011-05-02T01:44:22-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Denari http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7907

@Hey Apathy Did you save some for me? You can call it 'Freedom Pizza'.

You can call it 'Freedom Pizza'.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292748#Comment_292748 2011-05-02T01:57:10-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 SilentObjector http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2587

I'd also just like to say for the record that I was in favor of stringing the bastard up in Times Square and letting the pigeons have at him. Not that they'd want to eat the bitter bastard, but they ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292750#Comment_292750 2011-05-02T02:33:10-07:00 2011-05-02T02:33:53-07:00 Andre Navarro http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1561

The people currently celebrating are not necessarily celebrating Bin Laden's death in itself. Some are, of course. Some are celebrating a blow struck against the face of terrorism, an enemy that can ...

But all I can think about are the ten years of lies that preceded this, the thousands of deaths on both sides, and the pointlessness of it, which remains regardless of Bin Laden's death. One could argue all this glee anticipates the good things that will hopefully come out of his demise, but what I'm hearing the most right now is "re-election", with a bit of "the markets are very happy about this" on the side.

Bin Laden flew two planes into a building. It was horrendous and traumatic beyond words. But the two wars that were born of it, the Patriot Act, the lies and the thousands and thousands of casualties came from the reactions and decisions of other men, other monsters. The damage triggered by Bin Laden's actions over the years probably surprised even him.

I hope all this celebration is soon channeled into fixing it, rather than self-delusion that something earth-shattering has been accomplished with the death of an old piece of shit.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292751#Comment_292751 2011-05-02T02:43:55-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366

We should always be happy when evil human beings are removed from the planet. It happens so rarely.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292752#Comment_292752 2011-05-02T03:03:49-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Foamhead http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8779

@ William George: As much as I like to fall into the whole "every life is precious" line of thinking, the older I get, the more I begin to believe that there are some people who are so ...

As much as I like to fall into the whole "every life is precious" line of thinking, the older I get, the more I begin to believe that there are some people who are so irredeemable, for whatever reason, that removing them (nice euphemism, I know) might serve to make the world a better place.
Or maybe I'm just becoming as inflexible as the people I'd like to see the back of.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292753#Comment_292753 2011-05-02T03:13:02-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Oddcult http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214

/b/'s reaction to this is quite telling. It's got 'America, Fuck Yeah' on loop and the macros are churning out by the dozen already. But yeah, Obama's recent comments about that have been ...

But yeah, Obama's recent comments about that have been downright cocky since the birth certificate was revealed and now, with this in the offing, the timing makes sense as well as his confidence to do so.

I've got mixed feelings about this, but am taking a longer view. I've really had a lot of doubts about Pakistan's place in the world and I think that extremism from Pakistan has been far worse and likely to be more of an ongoing problem than that of most Arab nations, which are actually pretty moderate, yet regularly get demonised. If Pakistan was sheltering Bin Laden in any kind of official capacity and that brings the leadership there into conflict with the US and Britain, things could get very worrying, as they have nuclear weapons. It may also get very, very messy if India regards a strong western stance against Pakistan as tacit support and decides to have another go at Kashmir.

But...

I think that it does show that Obama's caution, deliberation and lack of militaristic and nationalistic rhetoric of the type that Bush produced to excess actually does mask action going on behind the scenes and no one can really doubt this now. Bush's 'Mission Accomplished' banner was fucking ridiculous. Right now, Obama would be utterly justified in doing something like that, but I suspect he won't.

What Obama will get now is a hell of a lot of political capital. The more I think about it the more it seems like he's been putting all his pieces in place to be able to say 'Check' to his US political opponents. He's completely outmaneuvered Donald Trump, his likely main political opponent with the speech at the White House correspondents dinner this week being a beautiful slapdown (if you haven't seen it, do watch it on youtube, it's very funny and has an extra dimension too, knowing that when he was delivering it that this was in the offing), which with this has moved beyond just claiming that he's someone who works on difficult issues and takes hard decisions.

After this week he's pretty much got his second term guaranteed and with the political capital he's gained should be able to get a mandate to deliver on a lot of his early promise. In Clinton's second term he made a fair stab at balancing the US budget and managed to get a lot done throughout the world (and left a plan to go after Al Queda that the Bush administration ignored, don't forget). It looks like Obama may have been planning for a while to pull off a similar trick.

One thing that I think *may* be conspiracy worthy, or perhaps was in part down to this coming up, was the delay to the launch of the final space shuttle mission. If Obama uses that, or its successful landing, to announce another moon, or possibly Mars, mission, on an affordable budget, then he's going to be able to generate enough goodwill and enthusiasm in the US to get a lot of other things done too.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292754#Comment_292754 2011-05-02T03:29:45-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Alastair http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=287

@andre, here here. you say what i wish i had the ability to

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292756#Comment_292756 2011-05-02T03:57:35-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366

@ Fookwit- For all of the glory it's capable of, the human species is also a pile of bastards. There may come a day when we ARE all precious, but we're still far from that.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292757#Comment_292757 2011-05-02T04:03:56-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RobSpalding http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=647

I watched 2 minutes of Sky News reporting on this today. 2 minutes was all it took for a commentator to say "I think Obama is taking too much personal credit for this." So I guess that's ...

2 minutes was all it took for a commentator to say "I think Obama is taking too much personal credit for this."
So I guess that's the party line on this one then.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292758#Comment_292758 2011-05-02T04:20:11-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Leto http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5181

Man inadvertently livetweeted the death of Osama bin Laden.

Man inadvertently livetweeted the death of Osama bin Laden.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292759#Comment_292759 2011-05-02T04:24:15-07:00 2011-05-02T04:25:45-07:00 Foamhead http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8779

@ RobSpalding: You're probably right about the party line but I just read a comment on a YouTube clip based on "America - Fuck Yeah!" from Team America which is citing something else ...

You're probably right about the party line but I just read a comment on a YouTube clip based on "America - Fuck Yeah!" from Team America which is citing something else deserving of credit for OBL's death:

I've already gave out my compliments! But i gotta say, It's amazing what you Americans can do when the PS3 Network is down!

]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292760#Comment_292760 2011-05-02T04:39:12-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 D.J. http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3196

Osama bin Laden has been a sort of running joke for so long, I feel it really surreal to hear they finally found, and killed, him.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292763#Comment_292763 2011-05-02T05:18:14-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Fan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6919

> The damage triggered by Bin Laden's actions over the years probably surprised even him. No I think that damage was his plan: that he wanted to fight America, but couldn't on American home ...

The damage triggered by Bin Laden's actions over the years probably surprised even him.

No I think that damage was his plan: that he wanted to fight America, but couldn't on American home ground, so he lured them to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq where he expected them to lose, economically.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292764#Comment_292764 2011-05-02T05:31:08-07:00 2011-05-02T05:33:22-07:00 TheEndsOfInvention http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8799

@'running gag'. yeah, a caricature, or perhaps a macguffin. either way I think what south park has to say is Very Important. http://allsp.com/l.php?id=e74

yeah, a caricature, or perhaps a macguffin. either way I think what south park has to say is Very Important.

http://allsp.com/l.php?id=e74]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292772#Comment_292772 2011-05-02T07:09:29-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Paul Sizer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=44

My hope: that actual Americans spend less time gloating over the death of an evil piece of shit and more energy into helping those impacted by this evil find solace and closure.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292773#Comment_292773 2011-05-02T07:25:31-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Fauxhammer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=27

This is nice and all, but there are still two wars being fought, and they're still taking dickpics at the airport. I absolutely understand people singing the Ewok Celebration Song, and I can't ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292774#Comment_292774 2011-05-02T07:33:41-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Paul Sizer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=44

This is nice and all, but there are still two wars being fought, and they're still taking dickpics at the airport.
Ooh, that's right; I'm flying to New York this week; better get my genitals washed and pressed for the cameras...]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292775#Comment_292775 2011-05-02T07:37:26-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

Thought 1: After calming down a bit, I do agree with Robin. Celebrating his death on the White House lawn doesn't necessary paint us in the greatest light, internationally-speaking (and probably ...

Thought 2: If THIS is what it takes to get people, no matter their politics or beliefs, to agree on one thing, and maybe make something of it... well, then that's what it takes, I guess. We'll see in the next few months if this was a significant victory, symbolic, political or otherwise, or if it was just one more casualty.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292776#Comment_292776 2011-05-02T07:38:20-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Greasemonkey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4625

@Paul - Expect new levels of privacy-invading insanity from the TSA now that they have the excuse that terrorists are gearing up for a series of revenge attacks.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292778#Comment_292778 2011-05-02T07:52:42-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 kmcleod http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=191

Colonel Sanders is dead but KFC lives on.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292780#Comment_292780 2011-05-02T08:11:32-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 keyofsilence http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7294

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nut, I'm not convinced. I started off the day quite happy at the fact that America could get some sort of closure (no matter how small) over the 9/11 ...

Still, that old 4chan adage rings true for me: pics or it didn't happen.

I don't intend to offend anyone by this post, by the way.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292781#Comment_292781 2011-05-02T08:17:34-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 johnjones http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1052

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nut, I'm not convinced. I started off the day quite happy at the fact that America could get some sort of closure (no matter how small) over the 9/11 ...

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nut, I'm not convinced. I started off the day quite happy at the fact that America could get some sort of closure (no matter how small) over the 9/11 atrocities, but without concrete proof I'm just somewhat disparaged. Maybe over these ten years I began to see him as some kind of immortal face of terrorism instead of just a man.

Still, that old 4chan adage rings true for me: pics or it didn't happen.

Figure there was a reason we landed a helicopter, had people hike to the compound, invade it, shoot him in the head and then take the corpse with them as proof.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292782#Comment_292782 2011-05-02T08:20:13-07:00 2011-05-02T08:21:54-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088

Yeah, I don't need pictures, I just need logic. If there was an administration that would have faked capturing/killing Osama Bin Laden, it was the Bush Administration. If Cheney thought it was a ...

There are far too many people involved in this for it to be fake. Plus, I can't see any administration taking the risk of anyone finding out; it's suicide to attempt something on this level. 9/11 conspiracies work (i.e. people buy that bullshit) because there is no way to prove them right or wrong. This would not work because too many grunts would be involved. There's the special forces team, the Pakistani officials involved, the crew on the ship where Bin Laden was tossed overboard, there are just too many witnesses. We know that the people in the village of Abbottabad saw American Choppers attacking the compound.

Hope that didn't come off too crass @keys, I'm more responding to every comment I've read on every news site that wants to see a picture of a man with a head wound aka the long form death certificate.

Yeah, the Birthers are done with, bring on the Deathers.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292783#Comment_292783 2011-05-02T08:27:27-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 keyofsilence http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7294

Not crass at all, don't worry about it. Like I said, over the years I think I've built him up as some kind of bogeyman whom will never be captured or killed. Don't mind me, I think I'm just coming to ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292784#Comment_292784 2011-05-02T08:33:40-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Oddcult http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214

Has the 'buried at sea' thing been officially confirmed? I've seen comment that his body was offered to Saudi Arabia, but they didn't want it. We can probably assume that pictures were taken and ...

I've seen comment that his body was offered to Saudi Arabia, but they didn't want it. We can probably assume that pictures were taken and plenty of DNA kept. There was probably an order that his body was treated in accordance with Islamic tradition and combined with a desire for a lack of a shrine, it's perhaps understandable.

The lack of a burial place is probably as much to stop Americans going there to piss on the grave as it is to prevent it becoming somewhere for supporters to visit.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292792#Comment_292792 2011-05-02T09:21:55-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Fauxhammer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=27

@Sizer: I'm going to make sure I ask for a fluffer. I'm afraid a picture taken cold isn't representative, if you take my meaning.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292796#Comment_292796 2011-05-02T10:09:45-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709

without concrete proof I'm just somewhat disparaged. Faking this doesn't have concrete benefits so it doesn't make sense as a conspiracy theory. There isn't any political implication except ...

without concrete proof I'm just somewhat disparaged.
Faking this doesn't have concrete benefits so it doesn't make sense as a conspiracy theory. There isn't any political implication except potential presidential election votes -- and we're 18 months from that. By then, if Bin Laden were still alive, we'd find out, and that would lead to backlash.

Unless some MCCrystal loyalists in the Seals faked out the president himself just for the purpose of embarrassing him -- !]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292802#Comment_292802 2011-05-02T10:41:24-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 buhbuhcuh http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10234

If it were faked, then bin Laden would just release a statement saying "ha, the great satan missed me" as that would do a fair bit of harm right now to the Obama administration. As for ...

As for my reaction, he declared multiple times that he was fighting a war against the US, and to my dismay, this country declared war against the nebulous and unbeatable enemy of "terrorism." It sounds like this kill was accomplished without much in the way of "collateral damage" or further innocent death. Furthermore, it was a clean death, and won't further smear our national honor and identity with sanctioned torture that would have probably occurred had we taken him alive.

I remember shortly after 9/11 my dad, probably the most pacifistic person I've known, argued that should bin Laden be captured, he should be executed in a soccer stadium in Afganistan. I'm glad that didn't happen.

I'm going to re-watch 4 Lions now.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292805#Comment_292805 2011-05-02T10:56:15-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

You can call it 'Freedom Pizza'. nice title I'll call it freedom pizza when people stop buying sweatshop goods, crack cocaine ceases to exist, the rainforests start to grow again, the oil ...

You can call it 'Freedom Pizza'.

nice title I'll call it freedom pizza when people stop buying sweatshop goods, crack cocaine ceases to exist, the rainforests start to grow again, the oil companies release the patent to the electric car, hollywood makes a movie that isn't a piece of hypnotic ideological warfare, children in the congo get to learn how to read instead of poaching or mining, when Obama get's to do what he believes in not what his corporate sponsors dictate, terrorists have no reason to exist and the newspapers show me an Eastern Asian face that hasn't been cropped to the demonic extreme, for now I'm calling it spagetti sauce and cheese on toast]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292808#Comment_292808 2011-05-02T11:08:25-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 gzapata http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4899

One thing I'd been wondering is whether killing him would turn him into a martyr. I've always felt people like him actually deserve to be left to live in prison, left to rot and watch as the world ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292810#Comment_292810 2011-05-02T11:58:35-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 keyofsilence http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7294

I don't doubt that this was how it all went down.

I don't doubt that this was how it all went down.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292813#Comment_292813 2011-05-02T12:06:40-07:00 2011-05-02T12:09:40-07:00 Foamhead http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8779

@ keyofsilence: I just watched that; head shaking, jaw on the floor. What's not to love? From Trump having his hair kicked-off to the ray-guns after they bazooka-ed the body. And that special ...

after they bazooka-ed the body. And that special room in hell...]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292814#Comment_292814 2011-05-02T12:11:02-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Chris Noble http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3384

I'm having a problem with this. I understand bin Laden was a real motherfucker. I get that. I get that an arrest, a trial... these things would have been close to impossible. And I am shedding not ...

I understand bin Laden was a real motherfucker. I get that. I get that an arrest, a trial... these things would have been close to impossible. And I am shedding not one single tear for him.
But I am finding certain reactions nauseating. And I'm trying to figure out why.
It's partially the chants of "USA! USA!", but you're always going to get that. I guess I've been reading some rather cold, bloodthirsty stuff from folks I would not expect to hear that sort of thing from. It's a tad disappointing, though fuck knows why anyone should dread my disappointment.
I once read an essay about "Saving Private Ryan", which made mention that one of the subtexts of the movie was, WWII was absolutely, completely horrible. It was also necessary.
Killing bin Laden was most likely necessary. I wish that, instead of dancing, drinking, and singing "America! Fuck Yeah!" more people could acknowledge that it was absolutely, completely horrible.
This is not sympathy for bin Laden, or a criticism of anyone here, or anything remotely like that. Just me, trying to figure out my mixed feelings.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292815#Comment_292815 2011-05-02T12:12:19-07:00 2011-05-02T12:22:33-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088

@gzpata Not trying to just reiterate what I said earlier, but I can't think we could have dodged the bullet more when Bin Laden didn't. The circus of bringing him in as a prisoner would have been ...

Not trying to just reiterate what I said earlier, but I can't think we could have dodged the bullet more when Bin Laden didn't. The circus of bringing him in as a prisoner would have been ridiculous. As much as people celebrated in the streets that this man is dead, can you imagine the feral intensity that we would have seen if he was brought in, in chains? People screaming for his execution? I don't believe the man would deserve a fair trial, and it would have been impossible to grant him one, and in that act, we would undo whatever "positive" gains we made by arresting him.

Then, consider we are expecting some form of retaliation from Al Qaeda for his death. How many would die, be held hostage, wounded during each subsequent attack, as long as Bin Laden rotted away inside some American gulag? How many soldiers/guards would be tempted to violate their oaths, have their consciences tested, protecting Bin Laden from being shanked, being beaten, or being paid off to allow those atrocities to actually happen? I would not want to be the one guarding Bin Laden's cell. God forbid someone finds out, holds my child hostage threatening terrible things if I don't aid in whatever their agenda is, whether it be to help or hurt that mass murderer.

As long as he remained alive, he would be a focal point for evil, from our side or theirs, for what our people would want to do to him, and for what their people would do to free him.

All of these things, these moral conundrums, these questions that could be put to a vote, or be blamed on a president, all of them were solved by a single bullet. Now, there is no grave to enshrine, no prison to attack, no guards to threaten, no prisoner to be used as a demand of hostage takers, no ploy to be had. Just a body sunk into the ocean.

Terrorists already commit crimes in his name. If they continue to do so, we will continue to protect our people as we always have. We already know that the terrorists are out there. They have one more thing to hate America for, oh well, they can have that one more thing.

ETA: For those that consider the death of Bin Laden to be a horrible thing; I guess I'm a bit confused. Murder happens all the time. It's something I assumed most people accept. I believe it's around 45 a day here in the USA. At least this one death had some sort of purpose to it. It may be stretching it to say that it was justice, if you even believe in that sort of thing. I don't believe that every life has value, I find that to be extremely naive. I also don't agree with partying and flying the flag and celebrating an execution. I guess I just don't understand the viewpoint. I don't have a problem with you having that view, like others have said, that's free speech, I'll fight for your right to have it. I guess I don't see how this death suddenly matters more than the 45 murders that probably took place on that same day here in America, or the countless deaths that occurred on the battlefields of Iraq, Afghanistan, or Syria. I think it's important to have a healthy respect for this death; it was not to be taken lightly. If that was your point, that this could be celebrated by a somber toast to an enemy vanquished, and not by a keg-stand, than I wholeheartedly agree.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292818#Comment_292818 2011-05-02T12:20:48-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 imaginarypeople http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7661

all i have to say is you can't kill a state of mind

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292819#Comment_292819 2011-05-02T12:24:35-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Steve Toase http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10253

I think the only 'it was faked' conspiracy theory that will gain any kind of legs is that the US would not kill someone with that much information to handover, and they have faked his death so the ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292822#Comment_292822 2011-05-02T12:39:19-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 epalicki http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=170

all i have to say is you can't kill a state of mind Pretty much what I was saying to friends a decade ago. Rhetoric aside, in declaring war on an abstraction, you're necessarily setting yourself ...

all i have to say is you can't kill a state of mind

Pretty much what I was saying to friends a decade ago. Rhetoric aside, in declaring war on an abstraction, you're necessarily setting yourself up to fail.

Besides, we've all read enough comic books to know that super villains rarely stay dead, and, when they do, are quickly replaced.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292823#Comment_292823 2011-05-02T12:49:03-07:00 2011-05-02T12:50:19-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

My take: Yes Bin Laden will become a martyr, but his symbolism as a martyr will be far less potent for followers than his symbolism as the man behind 9/11, the most devastating terrorist attack ...

Yes Bin Laden will become a martyr, but his symbolism as a martyr will be far less potent for followers than his symbolism as the man behind 9/11, the most devastating terrorist attack America has ever suffered, a mass murderer who continued to survive and evade capture by the US despite being the one man in the world the US most desperately wanted to capture or kill. Yes he was an important target to take down, because of this. Yes the enemy will now retaliate in the name of avenging Bin Laden, but also yes, this gives a huge morale boost to our troops.

Yes, Obama gets major political capital from this, and something I've not seen mentioned, this actually serves as a good conspiracy-killing follow-up to the birth certificate, because it will help marginalize further the fuckheads who still claim Obama is a muslim or a terrorist or the ruination of America or what-have-you.

Yes, Bin Laden was an evil fucker, so yes it IS valid for people to celebrate in some form the death of such an evil man. Yes it is ALSO valid to find celebrating anyone's death disturbing.

Yes, there's going to be people who simply will not believe Osama is dead, or the flipside (I heard this one at work today...), Osama was already dead, Obama was just sitting on it till now for whatever manipulative reasons. But I think, finally, some of the anti-Obama craziness will have to start abating, and the desperately in-denial haters will lessen in number and volume.

At least that's how I read things. My only questions are: how does the GOP try to play this subject in the media? And how does this play out on our presence in Afghanistan? Pakistan too, but I'm almost completely convinced that, in order to give the appearance and assurance that Bin Laden wasn't directly being protected by Pakistan's top brass, Pakistan is going to step up cooperation and open up to American presence both on the ground and with increased drone strikes. Cuz they don't really want Afghanistan's problems. Because nobody would.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292824#Comment_292824 2011-05-02T12:49:18-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 razrangel http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2075

Gov Spy - while my position is that killing Osama was justified I'd like to address your bafflement at why this death was different from other murders around the country. Because our military killed ...

And don't think I'm not horrified by them, either. I may be naive in believing that life is sacrosanct always, but naive != wrong.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292825#Comment_292825 2011-05-02T13:12:27-07:00 2011-05-02T13:14:22-07:00 Cat Vincent http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447

Even with UBL dead, AQ-as-franchise isn't going away. That's a longer fight, but no doubt this is an important symbolic act. The triumphalism is a bit disgusting, but understandable. The opinion on ...

John Robb.

What really bothers me is disposing of the body before confirming the ID. Even if it's just a field-expedient fuckup, it gives too much credence to any opposing conspiracy narrative that could otherwise have been squashed, hard.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292828#Comment_292828 2011-05-02T13:20:28-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

That certainly didn't take long: Here come the Deathers and look who's leading the parade.

Here come the Deathers and look who's leading the parade.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292829#Comment_292829 2011-05-02T13:22:08-07:00 2011-05-02T13:33:12-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

They confirmed the ID before the sea burial. Obama nor the military would dick around with that. ETA linky.

ETA linky.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292830#Comment_292830 2011-05-02T13:58:13-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088

Perhaps I stretched the comparisons of daily murders a bit too far. I guess I meant to stress that senseless murders should have more of a horrified response than a military operation that actually ...

Maybe I'm a bit too jaded to feel horrified at the death of Bin Laden. I'm not all jumping for joy at it either; I think being disgusted by parading fanfare is a healthy response. I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I feel satisfied that the man is dead, but not joyous or saddened by it either.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292832#Comment_292832 2011-05-02T14:09:11-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 roadscum http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7712

Has anyone actually seen Osama since that cave complex in Afghanistan got reamed out however many years ago? I know there's been some audio but have there been any good pictures or video? It's always ...

Still, it's nice to know that things will start getting better now that we've killed the evil mastermind who led the evil global terrorist organisation. Maybe i'll finally get my flying car.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292833#Comment_292833 2011-05-02T14:10:08-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

@roadscum I believe they have had video of him since.

I believe they have had video of him since.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292834#Comment_292834 2011-05-02T14:13:32-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Oddcult http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214

Some of the internet memey shite that's been produced is interesting as as a window on this. Without necessarily condemning or condoning, but presenting as found artefacts, maybe we could dump a few ...

]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292835#Comment_292835 2011-05-02T14:14:45-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 roadscum http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7712

@Ren Thing: Nice to know. Thanks. I'd better get down the showrooms for that car then, i expect there'll be a bit of a rush on.

Nice to know. Thanks.

I'd better get down the showrooms for that car then, i expect there'll be a bit of a rush on.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292836#Comment_292836 2011-05-02T14:21:16-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 256 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4827

Protip: People will believe in conspiracy theories if they want to believe in them. Doesn't matter what the theory is, whether it makes sense, or what evidence exists.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292837#Comment_292837 2011-05-02T14:23:12-07:00 2011-05-02T14:33:17-07:00 Chris Noble http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3384

@government spy I'm not at all sure you were replying to me, earlier. But what the hell, I'll dive in, with sincere apologies if I'm incorrect in my assumption: I don't think killing bin Laden ...

I'm not at all sure you were replying to me, earlier. But what the hell, I'll dive in, with sincere apologies if I'm incorrect in my assumption:

I don't think killing bin Laden was more horrible than the many senseless murders that occur every day. Of course I don't. Never said that, even. If it helps to say I'm more horrified by that, then consider it said. Although I'm not sure that has to be said.
And of course I know what the job of the military is: I've been watching them do that job from the comfort of my living room for the past several years.
And again, the job- this time, anyway- was necessary. I wish like hell it hadn't been, but it was. But the thing itself? It's a terrible thing. I not only feel no elation... I feel no satisfaction. Like I said, I'm not crying for him. In fact, I'm not 100% sure I'm accurately describing my feelings on this at all.
But killing, no matter how necessary it is, is a terrible thing.
Man, I'm not sure I'm making sense at all...

ETA: Something about the reactions makes me uneasy, and I'm not at all certain what. I'm just thinking out loud, trying to figure out what that something is.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292838#Comment_292838 2011-05-02T14:30:11-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

WaPo has a good run down of the development of intelligence that went into the operation, Obama's decision-making, and the actual operation itself.

It's a good reminder of how much better it is to make rational, informed decisions based on compelling evidence and only after several discussions with others. Versus, you know... going with your gut. A la Bush.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292841#Comment_292841 2011-05-02T14:46:20-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 razrangel http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2075

@Government Spy - I haven't really heard of anyone be horrified at the death of OBL - personally that is, maybe this would be in the Muslim, a bit more anti- than pro-America world. But I have heard ...

It's not a First Amendment matter to be horrified by the people celebrating - you have the right to say what you have to say. And I have the right to hold you accountable, judge your personality based on what you say and determine how I will treat with you due to what you said. I just don't have the right to prevent you from saying the things you wanted to say. (NB "you" here is a general You, not anyone specific on this thread.)

So I can't speak to being horrified by his death or anyone else near to me who may feel that way. But death is always unfortunate. I always believe that even if I don't always feel it. Despite my brothers' service in the Army I continue my opposition to war and disagree with the insistence that we are entitled to swift, violent retribution. They (my bros) didn't ask me when they signed up and we never talked about it. It had been a simmering pot of warring emotions - fear for them, frustration at what they would have to do, despair at the horrors they would have to face - and in many ways still is. I don't know when or how I could ever make a comprehensive account of my feelings on their service.

I grew up with my dad - a born storyteller - telling us of his time in the Navy during WW2. My uncles also served; but they were all drafted. Between them all they somehow raised me to be appreciate the importance of life. Indeed, it's because of my dad's wonder at life that comes through his stories that I've come to this position of a commitment to peace and non-violence. So... I guess in defense of the position that all life is worthy, I ask for some appreciation that this position wasn't arrived at lightly.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292842#Comment_292842 2011-05-02T14:48:50-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 KPatrickGlover http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1471

@Chris Noble It regards to the dancing in the streets level of reaction, it may help to realize that Bin Laden has been demonized to a point that he no longer represents (represented) an actual ...

It regards to the dancing in the streets level of reaction, it may help to realize that Bin Laden has been demonized to a point that he no longer represents (represented) an actual person. The Seals didn't kill a human being, they slayed a dragon.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292844#Comment_292844 2011-05-02T15:07:27-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 BOODOFFSTAGE http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=914

Something about the reactions makes me uneasy @ CHRIS NOBLE. First of all, Osama dead. Great. Put a mark it on the check list, a toast for a job well done, take a vacation. etc. Got no problem ...

First of all, Osama dead. Great. Put a mark it on the check list, a toast for a job well done, take a vacation. etc.
Got no problem that fucker went down in a shower of bullets. Seems almost poetic.
However...

I cant speak for you Chris Noble, but when I saw the images of cheering in the streets for the death of Osama, it reminded me of the images of the people cheering on the streets when the Twin towers toppled.

I don't think I ever felt such outright hatred towards a group of people that I knew very little about because they were cheering the death of american citizens. Didn't like it.

I dont know, cheering in the streets should be reserved for positive occurances, winning the superbowl. legalizing marijuana:)

but for negative stuff like terrorism, death, political assassination etc. Seems crass at best.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292845#Comment_292845 2011-05-02T15:08:45-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 roadscum http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7712

@256: i believe one thing and one thing only; THE BASTARDS LIE, all of 'em. This little episode may have some small effect on whether a lad from the estate down the road gets his legs blown off in ...

This little episode may have some small effect on whether a lad from the estate down the road gets his legs blown off in Afghanistan or elsewhere, or whether his brother can find a job when he leaves school, but it will be a small effect, very small.

I don't follow these things to closely but from what i can gather, much of the current 'Arab Spring' unrest has been fuelled by rises in fuel and food prices, things which also have some bearing on the situation here and in the US. These price increases have been brought about by, amongst other things, deregulation and speculation by futures traders. I don't believe that Osama, alive or long dead, had much effect on that. Someone did though.

Ever seen that trick with the three shells and a pea? When things are moving around fast enough, it's almost impossible to keep track of what's going on. That's why it's so important to keep people clearly focussed on who are the good guys and who are the bad, to make sure they're all concentrating on the big fight. So they don't notice when you sell the sofa they're sitting on.

Right, i'm off down the shops to buy some more tinfoil, me hat's just blown off.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292850#Comment_292850 2011-05-02T15:17:15-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

@Boodoffstage I cant speak for you Chris Noble, but when I saw the images of cheering in the streets for the death of Osama, it reminded me of the images of the people cheering on the streets ...

I cant speak for you Chris Noble, but when I saw the images of cheering in the streets for the death of Osama, it reminded me of the images of the people cheering on the streets when the Twin towers toppled.

Point of fact #1 - The people in the Twin Towers committed no crime against the people of Afghanistan, Pakistan, or which ever country the people you saw belonged to. They were victims.

Point of fact #2 - Osama admitted his responsibility gladly and took joy in the misery and suffering he caused.

There might've been death and cheering involved but the reasons behind the cheering, and the death, are worlds apart.

That being said, I'm not going to comment on the reactions of people in New York or those people who were friends and families of 9-11; their reactions are their own part of their grieving experience and I'd no more tell an Irish wake to keep it down or be more serious or a quiet, somber funeral to lighten up.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292852#Comment_292852 2011-05-02T15:32:01-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 KPatrickGlover http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1471

@RenThing You bring up an excellent point. When 9/11 happened, I was living in Lancaster County, PA, about a half hour from where Flight 93 went down. No matter how hard I struggle to be, this is ...

You bring up an excellent point. When 9/11 happened, I was living in Lancaster County, PA, about a half hour from where Flight 93 went down. No matter how hard I struggle to be, this is not a topic I seem to be able to be objective about.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292855#Comment_292855 2011-05-02T15:46:29-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

@KPatricGlover That's completely understandable. I can understand people finding such celebrations crass, and I don't disagree with the MLK quote that's going around either, but it's not for me to ...

That's completely understandable. I can understand people finding such celebrations crass, and I don't disagree with the MLK quote that's going around either, but it's not for me to tell someone else that their particular emotional way of dealing with a situation is inappropriate, regardless of my opinions of their reaction.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292856#Comment_292856 2011-05-02T15:53:17-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709

My observation on the celebrating is that this obviously took us embarrassingly long to do, and it makes us look like we have pretty low expectations of our ability to be so breathless about it ...

On a similar note, the comments from some pundits that this will send a firm chill down the spine of future terrorist organizers.. What the fuck are they smoking? So, the lesson that will utterly cow our future enemies is, "fuck with us and you will... continue to live for ten years and then be killed in a quick firefight!!" yes, a fate SO HORRIBLE that Arabs who've spent the last nine years being tortured in Guantanamo without trial simply because they happened to be wearing a casio watch when Uncle Sam stormed their village must today be thinking, 'Shit, thank God I wasn't that guy.'

Stupid fuckin pundits.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292861#Comment_292861 2011-05-02T16:20:14-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Oddcult http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214

@BrianMowrey - I dunno, history is full of people, even fairly important leaders, who've escaped forever. Owain Glynd?r is the first that springs to mind. Despite sometimes feeling otherwise, this ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292863#Comment_292863 2011-05-02T16:31:38-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709

Yeah, my mechanic analogy is a bit extreme. Tempered point being, there was a length of time when catching him could be considered an example of truly great work, then just what an organization with ...

That doesn't mean that great work wasn't done, just that victorious cheering is excessive. Congratulatory gestures are entirely appropriate and let's give them to all our brave heroes etc. Again, just a distinction of decorum.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292864#Comment_292864 2011-05-02T16:38:53-07:00 2011-05-02T16:41:21-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

@Brian: Actually I have to argue that (by which I mean, I'm gonna say this, but don't want to argue anything at all). Considering that Osama was blatantly being shielded and protected by our ultimate ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292865#Comment_292865 2011-05-02T16:39:58-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Oddcult http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214

Point taken, but I think there's an element of 'fucking finally...' in there too. Some of the celebration may be *because* it's taken so long and that bit's now over. I dunno... I'm struggling to ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292866#Comment_292866 2011-05-02T16:41:10-07:00 2011-05-02T19:20:37-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

The people in the Twin Towers committed no crime against the people of Afghanistan, Pakistan, or which ever country the people you saw belonged to. They were victims I think we (the fat white ...

The people in the Twin Towers committed no crime against the people of Afghanistan, Pakistan, or which ever country the people you saw belonged to. They were victims

I think we (the fat white business bastards) are all victims of our own selfish ideologies.
Big business is destroying the world and is certainly committing crimes but none of us want to realize it or even care. Every time America/Western Civilization makes money people suffer, are enslaved and die and the ocean turns brown and plastic lives forever. THERE ARE NO HEROES NOR INNOCENTS HERE just a lot of ignorant selfish mutherfuckers fucking with each others lives.

I've a friend who was a soldier in Afghanistan; it was his job to kill civilians, particularly women and children, with a flame thrower. He's home now and they gave him an award and a job with the fire department, it didn't last , neither did his marriage, now he spends his time wandering the streets and in and out of jail.

I doubt the people he burnt to death are able to stay objective about this one either]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292867#Comment_292867 2011-05-02T16:42:57-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

Wow Apathy... there's a hell of a lot of bullshit in your comment there. But I'm not gonna step in it...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292869#Comment_292869 2011-05-02T16:46:24-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Verissimus http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3379

I'm glad the dude's dead. But he's still just one.dead.asshole. Symbolically it may be important, but otherwise, more important stuff is going on in the world.

But he's still just one.dead.asshole. Symbolically it may be important, but otherwise, more important stuff is going on in the world.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292871#Comment_292871 2011-05-02T16:48:46-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 razrangel http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2075

Dry-eyed look at the facts surrounding this mission and the possibilities now on deck re: al qaeda and Pakistan. New Yorker's Notes on the Death of Osama Bin Laden

New Yorker's Notes on the Death of Osama Bin Laden]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292873#Comment_292873 2011-05-02T17:15:47-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

@doclivingston Seconded.

Seconded.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292875#Comment_292875 2011-05-02T17:32:54-07:00 2011-05-02T17:40:42-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

I know i know none of us want to realize it or even care & I just really think more important stuff is going on in the world. back to making pizza

none of us want to realize it or even care

& I just really think more important stuff is going on in the world. back to making pizza]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292876#Comment_292876 2011-05-02T17:43:17-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

Well, I'm predicting a thread closing by the end of the night, and speaking as the guy who started it, I'd welcome it. I think we've squeezed all the information out of the internet we can, and this ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292878#Comment_292878 2011-05-02T17:50:25-07:00 2011-05-02T17:51:40-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

Nobody saw that right? k good

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292879#Comment_292879 2011-05-02T17:52:17-07:00 2011-05-03T02:47:51-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

i did. you just said 3000 american deaths are worth more than the mistreatment of the entire 2 & 3rd world populus and the environment. in all honesty I just like to get people's blood flowing ...

EDIT so maybe you all won’t hate me too much: I had a teacher once who always had a counter point to any argument no matter how solid it might actually be. The idea was to put out as many questionable and yes even absurd ideas in hopes of achieving some sort of enlightenment. I think we can all agree that the world is pretty messed up and needs some new ideas. I like to push buttons/cause shit not because I think I’m right or because I have any real answers or even believe in what I say, but just in case the alchemy of counter-arguments might lead us to someplace better. I love and respect all of you and your opinions, if any group of smart asses are going to give birth to genius it’ll probably be here.

]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292892#Comment_292892 2011-05-02T20:04:26-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 jonah http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6503

Why didn't they fake a suicide? Wouldn't that be more demoralizing to bin laden's supporters? A suicide caused by fear of capture by american troops would be even more reassuring to the american ...

I remember obama talking about pakistan a lot during the election campaign in large part because of fox news, et al mocking his pronunciation.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292896#Comment_292896 2011-05-02T21:15:37-07:00 2011-05-02T21:20:10-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

If the idea was considered, it was likely rejected because it would be too hard to believe. That, and that if it ever got out that it wasn't the truth, it'd be far more damaging to us than if we'd ...

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more tempting that idea must have seemed. Suddenly, I'm actually really glad we didn't do that. Right now I feel sorta neutral and weary about the whole thing - if we'd fucked with it like that, I'd've have been searing mad. Likely others would have been, too. It would show that we'd been that corrupted by this whole whatever-you-want-to-call-it that, in the moment of what lots of people would consider victory, we chose lies over truth.

Which would, hilariously, mean the terrorists win.

EDIT 2: I just realized I'm not sure what I mean when I say "we" in this context, anymore. Fuck.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292906#Comment_292906 2011-05-03T02:33:05-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

I just realized I'm not sure what I mean when I say "we" in this context, anymore. Fuck @ Alan that's is a beautiful question , the kind of genius I've been looking for

I just realized I'm not sure what I mean when I say "we" in this context, anymore. Fuck

@ Alan that's is a beautiful question , the kind of genius I've been looking for]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292914#Comment_292914 2011-05-03T05:44:47-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Erisah http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6180

@gov spy:I can't think we could have dodged the bullet more when Bin Laden didn't. I had an interesting chat about this with my housemates last night about just this. The question came up as to ...

I can't think we could have dodged the bullet more when Bin Laden didn't.
I had an interesting chat about this with my housemates last night about just this. The question came up as to what orders were the soldiers who actually stormed the compound were probably given. My housemate M was convinced that the order would have been out and out "bring back the body". My housemate B was leaning more towards "Officially, we want him alive, but if that's too hard, we want him dead. Unofficially, you are a group of elite US soldiers, who are well aware of the fact that you are being ordered to bring down Big Bad Bin. It's been ten years since 9/11, so you probably signed up for this job at least indirectly because of him. Try not to enjoy this too much."
I was with B, but leaning more on the fact that if you're the "good guys" you just can't, by the unwritten rules of spin/diplomacy/media wrangling, ever say that you fully intended to kill a dude in cold blood. Even if it's bin Laden. Even if everyone knows that with UBL dead, Obama is getting re-elected. The reactions on this forum are why- pretty much everyone agrees that in the end, bin Laden being dead is almost definitely for the "greater good" (whatever that is), but a fair few are including the rider: "but we don't have to like the situation/we wish it wasn't necessary/all human life is sacred".
It makes me wonder though what sort of Nurembergesque media-circus would it have been if Osama had actually got a trial. More to the point, how would they have been able to go about it in a half-way convincing way? Osama was no Hitler, but he's definitely been (and will be) portrayed as the last decade's next best thing, as far as pop culture is concerned at the very least. Whether or not he is deserving of that degree of infamy when there are people like Gaddafi and Mugabe running around is debateable, but nonetheless, that is what I can see happening. After all, I've never heard a joke about Gaddafi, but I'm sure everyone has heard some variation of "Where you Bin?"

In any case, having Osama shot "for resisting" would have definitely cut down on prolonging the almost definitely inevitable.

It was interesting watching the commentators speculating about the motivations and planning for the whole thing tonight. Apparently some poor bastard in Gitmo surrendered the alias of one of Osama's most trusted couriers about eight years ago under "interrogation", and then that set off a slow-moving chain reaction (it took years for a real name to be found, and then longer before surveillance on the dude turned up anything useful) that led to the CIA figuring out where UBL was likely to be. Apparently they'd been watching the compound for months.

@ Jonah:Why didn't they fake a suicide?
If he had committed suicide, it would have been Osama controlling the result, albeit in a pyrrhic sense. The outcome of some unnamed US grunt(s) shooting him dead means that it was by extension the US completely controlling the situation, so there is no ambiguity- the message is, if you piss off the US, they will eventually find you, kill you, and then bury you at sea.

Speaking of which, am I the only one to think that the reason why they did that is linked to why they haven't posted pics (like they did with Saddam) is probably that the body was such a mess after whatever they did to it that they wanted to get rid of the evidence ASAP?

On the other hand, if I wanted to start a conspiracy theory, I'd suggest that UBL is actually still alive, and being interrogated by the US in some deep dark pit somewhere, where no one will look for him, because the world thinks that he is dead.
The alternative is that South Park got it right, and he's been dead for years. Obama needed a boost to his political capital, so he had the military re-enact UBL's death.

Honestly, I think it is what it looks like. Otherwise I'm surprised how numb I am concerning this whole episode. On the upside, no one is talking about the Royal Wedding anymore.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292915#Comment_292915 2011-05-03T06:12:25-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Flabyo http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306

@Erisah - oh, they're still talking about the wedding. There's a fun conspiracy theory that Obama waited until after the wedding so as not to provoke a knee-jerk attack on it by terrorists.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292917#Comment_292917 2011-05-03T06:20:19-07:00 2011-05-03T06:22:42-07:00 Finagle http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5254

My wife and kids are both Muslim; my wife's lived in Egypt and was married to an Egyptian. She does Middle Eastern stuff, is a leftist, but not any kind of pacifist. She has reason to be extremely ...

All that being said, the wife offered the following from Mark Twain this morning in the kitchen: “I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.”

States are going to be running around knocking over other states for the forseeable future. If they can get what they want by going in and quietly capping one guy like proper gangsters should, I'm all for that. To our mind, it is so much more preferable than the potential death and displacement of hundreds of thousands due to the effects of sanctions, which is simply modern siege warfare. How many die due to an embargo on vaccines, computers, or medical isotopes? How many die every year just trying to get out of Cuba? How many die due to internal displacement and ethnic cleansing while the white-helmet crowd stand around just making sure nobody actually gets shot?

Yes, the world is run by international gangsters. Given that this is not likely to change anytime soon, I *vastly prefer* the notion of just going in and taking out the guy, accepting full responsibility for it, and proclaiming justice has been done, then getting the hell out. If the same thing happened in Libya, I wouldn't cry over it either.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292926#Comment_292926 2011-05-03T07:34:32-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 bjacques http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2157

I was watching CNN on 9/11, channel surfing on a boring afternoon. In the spring of 1945, a B-29 accidentally bounced off the Empire State Building, and I figured this was something like that. Until ...

What bin Laden did (or organized) was bad enough; worse were all the people who *profited* from the crime, materially or ideologically or both. Some used the attacks as an excuse to really go nuts, like the anthrax letter guy (who never got caught--so much for Homeland Security). Others, even liberals, shat themselves and declared that clean underwear and refusal to re-legitimize torture betrayed a "pre-9/11" mindset. Hurricane Katrina (and the 2007-2008 financial crash proved that the "adults" then in charge were not only crooked but useless as well.

After 10 years of that, I'm not in a very celebratory mood.

I'm glad it was Obama who bagged bin Laden (Bush having disbanded the OBL search unit in 2006), He showed how quiet determination beats hot air. (And well done to everyone who made it happen.)

I'm glad the timing made Donald Trump and the birfers look like the morons they are. I'm enjoying the butthurt of the Right.

I'm OK with making cheap jokes at the fucker's expense, and the internet memes swirling about are pretty damn funny.

I'm happy that some people are getting joy in a time that doesn't provide much of it.

And I'm not especially bothered to learn bin Laden was probably shot on sight.

Relieved, sure. Celebratory, not really. I want my country back. If killing bin Laden was a small step toward bringing it closer, I'll celebrate that. I'll raise a glass of the hot, angry tears of the tribal Right.

But right now, I just feel ten years older.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292940#Comment_292940 2011-05-03T10:12:50-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 lazarus corporation http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=630

The question came up as to what orders were the soldiers who actually stormed the compound were probably given. My housemate M was convinced that the order would have been out and out "bring ...

The question came up as to what orders were the soldiers who actually stormed the compound were probably given. My housemate M was convinced that the order would have been out and out "bring back the body". My housemate B was leaning more towards "Officially, we want him alive, but if that's too hard, we want him dead. Unofficially, you are a group of elite US soldiers, who are well aware of the fact that you are being ordered to bring down Big Bad Bin. It's been ten years since 9/11, so you probably signed up for this job at least indirectly because of him. Try not to enjoy this too much."

I'm no military expert, but I'd hazard a guess that it's more dangerous to capture and 'kidnap' (for want of a better word) a live prisoner, than to kill someone and carry away their dead body. So I'm guessing the (official) orders were along the lines of "don't risk an American soldier's life to keep bin Laden alive" (with a heavy subtext of "shoot to kill").]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292941#Comment_292941 2011-05-03T10:14:08-07:00 2011-05-03T10:14:55-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

@Hey Apathy! you just said 3000 american deaths are worth more than the mistreatment of the entire 2 & 3rd world populus and the environment. So, those 3,000 American deaths were directly ...

you just said 3000 american deaths are worth more than the mistreatment of the entire 2 & 3rd world populus and the environment.

So, those 3,000 American deaths were directly responsible for the mistreatment of, as you say, "2 & 3rd world populus and the environment"?

Janitors who worked in the WTC?
The people who were grabbing a bite to eat in some of the eateries along the bottom of the building?
The people passing in the street who were crushed by debris?
The fire-fighters who ran in to try and save lives? The police as well?
The people who were just taking a plane across country, some probably for business, some possibly for pleasure?

I'd argue that the reason why it appears the oceans are turning brown to you is the color of the opinions you're filling up with. Those people were victims, they died because hateful people took over planes and tried to do our country harm.

Your opinion of "Well, that's what we get for what we do" is no different than the bloke who tells a rape victim "If you hadn't worn that short skirt, you wouldn't have been assaulted."]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292947#Comment_292947 2011-05-03T10:52:22-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 256 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4827

@RenThing - I think the important point, which often seems to be lost, is that terrorists aren't just pantomime villains. Though the results of their actions may be unambiguously horrendous and evil, ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292958#Comment_292958 2011-05-03T12:31:26-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Miranda's Eyes http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1443

So now there are signs that the US government lied about certain details about bin Laden's death. It's one thing to kill somebody who was going to shoot back. But what if bin Laden was unarmed when ...

the US government lied about certain details about bin Laden's death. It's one thing to kill somebody who was going to shoot back. But what if bin Laden was unarmed when he was killed...and the US soldiers knew it? It also doesn't help that the media didn't display any reasonable degree of skepticism.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292959#Comment_292959 2011-05-03T12:44:19-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

@256 And that's all well and good, but you don't blame the victim of a murder because society helped the murderer along, do you? No. There may be circumstances behind why a person does what ...

And that's all well and good, but you don't blame the victim of a murder because society helped the murderer along, do you? No.

There may be circumstances behind why a person does what they do but, in the end, there is still the personal choice of the individual to take the actions they do; the victim, unless they actively had a hand in what caused the person to get to that point, is blameless except in some extremely loose, ideological, maybe-if-we-can-squint-we-can-kind-of-see-it fashion.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292964#Comment_292964 2011-05-03T13:17:13-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088

It's one thing to kill somebody who was going to shoot back. Not when we're talking about Bin Laden. All bets are off. We weren't there. And "shoot back" can mean several things (as ...

It's one thing to kill somebody who was going to shoot back.

Not when we're talking about Bin Laden. All bets are off. We weren't there. And "shoot back" can mean several things (as in, he gets away, and "shoots back" with suicide bomber retaliation). Trying to bring him in as a live capture would have been extremely difficult even if he was unarmed.

I've said it before, but I don't think some people get it. Do you think bringing him in alive would have been a better idea? Explain that to me.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292965#Comment_292965 2011-05-03T13:19:55-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 joe.distort http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1173

EELS

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292967#Comment_292967 2011-05-03T13:26:28-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Jon Wake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1684

No, I think there's a need to feel morally superior-- which is easy when no responsibility falls on your shoulders. If the choice is to put a round in a mass murderers head, or try and tackle him ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292974#Comment_292974 2011-05-03T13:48:10-07:00 2011-05-03T13:53:01-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

@ RenThing- I'm gonna have some fun with this and really p--s some people off. I kind of think that we are all responsible. There is no "society", or Kierkegaardien "crowd" ...

I kind of think that we are all responsible. There is no "society", or Kierkegaardien "crowd" just thousands of individual people who don't care what happens to anyone else. The scary part is that the repercussions of our lifestyles are so hidden, even brainwashed into invisibility that we refuse to be held accountable every time we go and just:

grab a bite of drugged up mass produced tortured animals and genetically altered food stuff pumped full of sugar harvested on plantations wrapped in tinfoil and Styrofoam to eat in some of the eateries along the bottom of the building

the people passing in the street wearing sweatshop running shoes and designer shirts that cost enough to feed a family of five for a month,

(ok I can't touch the fire fighters, it's an honorable position and is terrible they lost there lives because of all this lunacy)

join a pseudo military boys club built on racial profiling & bullyish control, ready to attack the public like barbarians at the beck and call of the G20

The people who were just flying around a bravenew world paid for by bloody business and accessible only for the pleasures of wealthy folk?

I'm mean you don't get a title like "the great satan" for nothing, sure those people who call us that are just savages but that's what they think of us

It's hard for me to imagine it too but just say a whole bunch of brown people kept showing up in you're neighborhoods with guns telling you what to think, what to believe, stole your resources and gave you coca-cola when you don't even have water, you might consider taking drastic actions also. I am by no means an terrorist nor extremist sympathizer though, which exactly why I can't side with the either party.

also there's no need to call my opinions names- I respect your thoughts and am really just pushing the ideas, I don't think anyone is in the right here the situation is not as simple as that]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292976#Comment_292976 2011-05-03T13:50:47-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

@Miranda's Eyes: it looks more like John Brennan (and likely a few other officials) was just misinformed and the media ran with what he was telling, and there was some ambiguity about the events ...

it looks more like John Brennan (and likely a few other officials) was just misinformed and the media ran with what he was telling, and there was some ambiguity about the events until a full debriefing could occur. Which isn't the government lying.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292978#Comment_292978 2011-05-03T13:52:14-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 government spy http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6088

@hey apathy Have some class, please.

Have some class, please.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292982#Comment_292982 2011-05-03T13:53:38-07:00 2011-05-03T13:54:30-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

@ gov spy- elaborate?

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292984#Comment_292984 2011-05-03T13:55:37-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

Apathy, first, your thoughts and insights aren't particularly novel. Most of what you're saying is obvious. Because it's reality. Second, you need to back off the "deliberately trying to piss ...

Your initial comment suggested that the people who died on 9/11 directly brought about their own deaths. Blatantly false, but if you want to think that, fine. But it's a pointless thought. All crimes, all horrible things, can be traced back endlessly to an endless number of contributing factors. But at the end of the day, there has to be a criminal to hold accountable for a crime. The victims of 9/11 were victims, and trying to frame their role differently reeks of arrogance and inhumanity.

Yes, the way the world works is unfortunate. But blaming the victim is and always will be antithetical to any true justice. What you keep going on about, we all already know. And it's a discussion worth having, but not the way you're trying to have it.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292986#Comment_292986 2011-05-03T13:56:59-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Jon Wake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1684

Moral certainty is the purview of those with no serious choices to make.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292988#Comment_292988 2011-05-03T14:00:43-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Jon Wake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1684

@hey-apathy So what you're saying, is: "She shouldn't have worn that dress."

So what you're saying, is: "She shouldn't have worn that dress."]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292989#Comment_292989 2011-05-03T14:03:12-07:00 2011-05-03T14:11:22-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

my apologies - I really shouldn't be deliberately trying to piss people off and most of what I said very confrontational, I just have to wonder if we questioned reality a little more if we couldn't ...

it's a discussion worth having, but not the way you're trying to have it - you're right my experiment is flawed and negative, but I hope it at least makes people think a little about all sides of this despite my miserable approach.

again sorry for my theatre of the extreme]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292992#Comment_292992 2011-05-03T14:05:43-07:00 2011-05-03T14:18:47-07:00 JP Stargazer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=603

Tough subject. Where's the truth about all this?? And according to who's viewpoint? Who's right and who's wrong and why??!! Nevertheless, nice timing for this to happen. Just when everybody's aiming ...

I do have on thing to question: people celebrating in the streets Bin Laden's death. Yes, 9/11 was terrible, but do yo think that's the right reaction? Celebrating someone's death as if it where some football team winning the superbowl?? YOU should show some class. Bin Laden was a human being. He was not an extraterrestrial, he was not some 6thdimensional demon; he also was a human being. You may think that I'm to soft, but I think that if people don't realise that, there will never be a true evolution in human rights. If he was a criminal, judge him as such. Show some hardproof evidence (I'm not saying there wasn't any, just that let's not forget WHO armed Osama in the firstplace). Yeah, I also like to suck Michael Moore's wrinkled cock.

And, anyway, where's the body?! How can you claim he's dead??? ... Pfff, he's probably in a beach now, hanging with Elvis, Michael and Georgie Bush.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292993#Comment_292993 2011-05-03T14:08:25-07:00 2011-05-03T14:11:54-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

@ JP don't worry I'm just getting outta here

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=292995#Comment_292995 2011-05-03T14:14:50-07:00 2011-05-03T14:17:10-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

@Hey Apathy No matter how you further clarify it, it is still victim blaming. Re: respecting your opinion - I do not have to respect an opinion, simply because it is held. ...

No matter how you further clarify it, it is still victim blaming.

Re: respecting your opinion - I do not have to respect an opinion, simply because it is held.

@doclivingston

Yes, the way the world works is unfortunate. But blaming the victim is and always will be antithetical to any true justice. What you keep going on about, we all already know. And it's a discussion worth having, but not the way you're trying to have it.

Thank you. Your second point is especially good.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293000#Comment_293000 2011-05-03T14:24:51-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 JP Stargazer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=603

I'd like to clarify something: I do think that Osama Bin Laden was a criminal and I do think that he had to answer for his crimes. But please, don't try to sell me this crap! "Oh, hey, look, ...

But please, don't try to sell me this crap! "Oh, hey, look, guys!! We got OSama's head!! We rock!! The world's safer now!! Everything's all right! We're God's little pet people and he pointed us where the fucker was hiding!! All right!! Everybody, the party's at the White House's awesome yard, tonight!!"]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293001#Comment_293001 2011-05-03T14:25:23-07:00 2011-05-03T14:44:39-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

yes, She shouldn't have worn that dress if it was made in a sweatshop by a malnourished slave who never got the chance to learn how to read I don't blame the victims of the USA's empirical ...

She shouldn't have worn that dress if it was made in a sweatshop by a malnourished slave who never got the chance to learn how to read

I don't blame the victims of the USA's empirical selfish greedy superiority complex ideology for wanting to blow the USA up.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293004#Comment_293004 2011-05-03T14:34:32-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Jon Wake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1684

@Hey apathy I don't blame rapists--those bitches waving it around in their face all day, of COURSE they'll act on it. Oh wait, how did people act in Yemen, and Egypt, and Lybia, and Bahrain, and ...

I don't blame rapists--those bitches waving it around in their face all day, of COURSE they'll act on it.

Oh wait, how did people act in Yemen, and Egypt, and Lybia, and Bahrain, and all throughout the Middle East? By bombing civilians a world away? It must have been that, because that's the only way they could be heard, right?

Fool.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293005#Comment_293005 2011-05-03T14:35:38-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

@JP But please, don't try to sell me this crap! I saw someone in a comment over on Scalzi's blog say "This is our V-Day". No, not it really isn't. @Hey Apathy Ah, yes, so New ...

But please, don't try to sell me this crap!

I saw someone in a comment over on Scalzi's blog say "This is our V-Day". No, not it really isn't.

@Hey Apathy

Ah, yes, so New York got what's coming to it. Thank you for helping along my point. I'm sure the families of the victims of 9-11 would take comfort in your words.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293009#Comment_293009 2011-05-03T14:41:33-07:00 2011-05-03T14:48:59-07:00 Verissimus http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3379

I don't think this conversation is going to last that much longer... But anyway, sure, HEY APATHY! is correct. Partially. Of course the US does bad stuff, I'm sure everyone knows that. That ...

But anyway, sure, HEY APATHY! is correct. Partially. Of course the US does bad stuff, I'm sure everyone knows that. That however does not mean that people who end up blowing up the World Trade Center were justified in their actions, they simply killed a bunch of innocent people. There are proper ways to adress grievances, and this really isn't it...

So the US does deserve its America Fuck Yeah moment, because OBL was just a nasty little shit who brought more misery for the entire world.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293011#Comment_293011 2011-05-03T14:42:47-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Chris Noble http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3384

@joe.distort EELS Seconded.

EELS

Seconded.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293014#Comment_293014 2011-05-03T14:53:11-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Verissimus http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3379

EELS Don't you mean SEALS? Any moment now they're going to chopper them in to kill this thread...

EELS

Don't you mean SEALS? Any moment now they're going to chopper them in to kill this thread...]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293016#Comment_293016 2011-05-03T14:59:20-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

absolutely no one is ever justified in blowing anything up and murder is the most horrible thing in the world @joe & Chris yes we are a bunch of eels, Warren must be busy writing

@joe & Chris

yes we are a bunch of eels, Warren must be busy writing]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293017#Comment_293017 2011-05-03T15:00:09-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 BOODOFFSTAGE http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=914

Victims stop being victims when they decide that the best solution to express their grievances is by killing lots of people at random. The is that they profess that they are of the true faith, ...

The is that they profess that they are of the true faith, but the people of true faith,(whatever religion you choose to follow) believe in something better and they do not let themselves be consumed by anger, hate and violence and dedicate all their time and energy to death and destruction.

I dont think the after life will be the way they think it is.

null

]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293021#Comment_293021 2011-05-03T15:27:01-07:00 2011-05-03T15:33:40-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

Victims stop being victims when they decide that the best solution to express their grievances is by killing lots of people at random you are a wiseman BOODOFSTAGE your comment is beautiful (and ...

Victims stop being victims when they decide that the best solution to express their grievances is by killing lots of people at random

you are a wiseman BOODOFSTAGE your comment is beautiful (and has destoyed my extreme argument)]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293022#Comment_293022 2011-05-03T15:32:05-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Jon Wake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1684

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of people's motivations for celebration. For the past decade, our entire culture has been twisting in the wind, waiting for the other shoe to explode. ...

The loss of life was numbing, the motivations so prosaic it boggled the mind. We're sort of used to dumb crackers who blow up abortion clinics, and we know (or knew) how to deal with them.

But here came this strange ascetic who openly spoke about world domination, who took pleasure in the misery he caused, whose power was so out of proportion with his stature that even the thief-hunters didn't really know what to do with him. He was important to the terrorist subculture, a superhero to suicide bombers. Over a period of ten years he turned a disparate group of bombers into a dedicated cult through sheer charisma. He took a brutalized Egyptian and turned him from being a marginalized failure into a criminal mastermind. He took another marginalized failure and inadvertently turned him into a 'war president'.

For seven and a half years, the CIA ran in circles, dodging Bush's absurd public statements, following up on every lead until they were spread so thin they didn't know what was happening next door, the FBI was forced to chase domestic phantoms, the military sold it's tarnished soul to private contractors, and the machinery of our dysfunctional government sputtered and failed and splintered. We lost control of our government, all because some rich boy's son decided to make us look like fools. To our shame, we obliged.

Then, in 2006, Bush essentially threw his hands in the air and gave up. We all knew he had no real interest in finding Bin Laden, at least not any more. We were trapped in two wars, our wealth was funneling to the upper 1% at an astonishing rate, and for me and my generation, we were watching our futures vanish. Absurdity piled on absurdity, each encroachment on our dignity justified with more fear, another attack in Mumbai, or London, or Indonesia. In the back of our minds we knew that terrorists were empowered by Bin Laden-- his power wasn't in planning, but in championing, in letting a teenager with a pipebomb and a hatred of dancing feel like the daring man who escaped the clutches of the infidel time and time again.

Things changed in the past six months. The mostly peaceful (but willing to use force is self-defense) uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt did what Bin Laden's coterie never managed, and all without a single bomb. It put the lie to myth Bin Laden told the Middle East, that murder was the only tool that could affect change. It put the lie to the Liberal myth of the powerlessness of third worlders in the face of American wealth and influence, too.

Bin Laden's death marks the end of an era. Reasons to stay in Afghanistan will be hard to come by, the justifications for detentions and human rights abuses thinner and thinner. Change will not come overnight--there are still thousands of angry little men with bombs, warring tribes in the hills, countries in shambles-- but we can finally straighten our spines and look to the future without the demons of the past hounding us. Our mistakes are, were, and will be many. We will misstep and fall, we will back dictators to avoid the worse unknown, we will go broke and fail our citizens. But we will do all these things of our own misguided, arrogant, painfully well-meaning reasoning, and not because of some shadow in the mountain.

That is what they are celebrating. Not the death of a man, no matter how vile. Was there dancing in the street when Dahlmer died? Or when Oswalt was shot? No. We did not dance in the streets when Afghan civilians were killed in bombings, we did not rejoice when the town of Mai Lai was massacred. We are not that people. Attempting to claim an unbroken line of moral causality from the tears of joy in Times Square to dragging bodies through the street is superficial reasoning, more about smug self-satisfaction then serious thought.

People celebrate because it's over. A decade long fever dream is over. We can wake up now.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293023#Comment_293023 2011-05-03T15:36:18-07:00 2011-05-03T15:39:16-07:00 Alan Tyson http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1299

We can wake up now. We can, yes. Does that mean we are going to, though? I think we could have easily woken up long before this happened. What was stopping us? I mean, I hope we do. I really ...

We can wake up now.

We can, yes. Does that mean we are going to, though? I think we could have easily woken up long before this happened. What was stopping us?

I mean, I hope we do. I really do. Because I like America. All my stuff is here, and most of my friends. There's still lots of work to be done, though, and there's no reason to pretend there isn't.

I don't really care if anyone gets punished or talked to for anything they've said on this thread, but I really, really think it's time for it to be closed. Since I can't do it myself, please Lord and Lady, close it for me. I don't think we're going anywhere that anyone wants to go right now. Whitechapel's better than this.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293024#Comment_293024 2011-05-03T15:39:56-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709

That murder/war is always wrong has never been and won't soon be a viewpoint favored by natural selection, the societies that get by are the ones who believe in retribution. In other words, an era ...

In other words, an era where a valid discussion of pacifism can take place hasn't yet arrived. there's really no need to employ arguments against a viewpoint that can't compete in the marketplace of actual human actions, that's like towling off a sidewalk after it sprinkles on a sunny day.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293026#Comment_293026 2011-05-03T15:43:59-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 CDoring http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=493

@Jon Wake Well said, sir.

Well said, sir.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293027#Comment_293027 2011-05-03T15:54:11-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 JP Stargazer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=603

@Jon Wake: sorry to burst your bubble, but it's not over. It's never over. Your Military, and thus your government, just killed A FACE. SOMETHING THEY CAN PUT ON T-SHIRTS AND SAY "HEY, THE ...

In a couple of weeks, they'll come up with another boogeyman. 'Cause do not forget that Bin Laden, though a criminal, was mostly THE BOOGEYMAN THAT THE MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX INVENTED TO SCARE THE SHIT OUT OF THE AMERICNA PEOPLE and thus keep them controlled. Scared and controlled. Just like Saddam, who, by the way, turned out as another grea example of america's civilized manners. "He did what?!! Well, let's hang him!! After the execution, beers are on me!! Yeee-haw!!!". NIce, nice, now that's civilized. Right at the beggening of the 21st-fucking-century. A public hanging.

disclaimer: I do not hate America and/or [north]americans. It is often assumed that we foreigners do that. However, I am and shall remain extremely critical regarding the US' foreign politics and speech and to most amercian's viewpoints, ideologies (or lack of), ways of life, etc. Anyway, I am NOT throwing stones here, for I don't think I have the right to do so. "He who is free of sin..." and all that. Blah.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293035#Comment_293035 2011-05-03T16:20:08-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 razrangel http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2075

The wave of relief that hit me when I heard that the nameless wife Osama used as a body shield wasn't killed really caught me off-guard. Still, she was shot. Furthermore, the news that a treasure ...

The uncertainty over whether torture gave up actionable intel on OBL's location may have been the reason for a kill order. A trial would be much, much harder per our own laws, never mind international law, if the use of extreme coercion/torture could be proved.

After more time to think about it, I realized that maybe as late as 03 I would have been far more ecstatic over the news of OBL's death. I don't know about dancing in the street, but much more pleased. Now my relief is dissipated by irritation with my government the troubles that have had time to metastasize since 9/11.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293036#Comment_293036 2011-05-03T16:21:04-07:00 2011-05-03T16:21:48-07:00 atavistian http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6519

I'm just going to leave this article with Sarah Palin entirely crediting George Bush for the bin laden op here.

here.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293037#Comment_293037 2011-05-03T16:21:31-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Oddcult http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214

Yub Nub.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293039#Comment_293039 2011-05-03T16:24:16-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

@Jon Wake Very well said but it's not over. Killing OBL won't get rid of the charismatic people he's inspired, like the American-born cleric in Yemen who has been working on getting people in the ...

Very well said but it's not over. Killing OBL won't get rid of the charismatic people he's inspired, like the American-born cleric in Yemen who has been working on getting people in the US to do his dirty work (I believe the NYC subway bombing plot was inspired by his speeches). It won't get rid of the Patriot Act or the TSA and it won't close Gitmo or any of the other secret prisons scattered about the world.

JP Stargazer is right in some respects; the US has always had and needed a bad guy. Until my generation, and for all of my father's, it was Communism. Then it was terrorism in some shades, then Saddam, then terrorism again with Al Queda, the Taliban and, to some people, Islam, then it was Saddam, and then it went back to being Islam and radical Muslims. There are some people who need to have a bad guy, a boogeyman, and they'll use that boogeman, real or fictional, to keep us asleep.

Like Alan said, I do hope we wake up.

@all

Alan said, "Whitechapel's better than this." and it is. I got emotional and there were probably better ways I could've responded. I apologize if my words insulted anyone.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293056#Comment_293056 2011-05-03T17:36:50-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Rootfireember http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1551

We might 'wake up'. We might not. Tomorrow is never certain; but at least now there's a bit more hope in the world with one of the latest boogeymen gone. Yes, he was human. And it's not moral to ...

Yes, he was human. And it's not moral to cheer at his death. But he's also been a symbol and a cultural demon. The person pointed to to explain the horrors of the world. It's all his fault, we were told. And many people -rightly or wrongly- believed it. With him gone, they can now focus on other things instead of the OBL paranoia that got us a molesting TSA and other joys of the ...er... modern... world.
It's not an instant fix, but it still is something of a victory; and in world where we seem rather ruled by fear I think some celebrations should not be instantly condemned.
Let the people have their victory lap. I'd prefer THAT to whinging and vicious fear mongering. It is a step in the right direction, I believe. A small one-- but you have to start somewhere.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293057#Comment_293057 2011-05-03T17:38:59-07:00 2011-05-03T19:03:11-07:00 oldhat http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75

Oh man, this just descended in to...wow.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293058#Comment_293058 2011-05-03T17:42:12-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 SilentObjector http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2587

@JP Stargazer, Yeah that was pretty bad. In our defense, though, Saddam was tried, convicted, and sentenced by Iraqi authorities. We just stood and took pictues.

Yeah that was pretty bad. In our defense, though, Saddam was tried, convicted, and sentenced by Iraqi authorities. We just stood and took pictues.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293066#Comment_293066 2011-05-03T18:28:34-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 JP Stargazer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=603

@SilentObjector: Sentenced by iraqi authorities. Authorities appointed by the US military. Or, if I'm wrong, anyway, I was just reading: the interim prime minister of Iraq during that transition ...

OK, no, I'm not mocking you, I'm just saying: politics is the art of lying. War, as Alan Moore said, is the failure of immagination. War is the physical, armed expresion of politics. With BIn Laden dead, you don't end the war on terror. You end it by realizing that your government answers to corporative interests, to corporations not only american (actually, corporations are multinationals, so the don't have nationality; no sense of patriotism!) but also, ironically, middleeastern! I'm probably oversimplifying this, I'm not the smartest person in the world. But one has to learn to recognize a smoke screen. Remember: back and to the left.
Also, I'm probably becoming very paranoid, as of late.

Respectfuly.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293069#Comment_293069 2011-05-03T18:34:21-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 JP Stargazer http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=603

And I'm beginning to think that politics/bussinesmen keep the world this way so they can create more plots for Hollywood, until the end of centuries. Amen.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293070#Comment_293070 2011-05-03T18:36:12-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Morac http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10266

Man, I am really glad I brought my Ten Foot Pole into the forums with me today.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293074#Comment_293074 2011-05-03T19:20:22-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 jonah http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6503

This whole thing got me thinking about my first exposure to bin laden 11 years ago. I redid this article from the magazine Datacide as part of a graphic design project in high school. I thought the ...

this article from the magazine Datacide as part of a graphic design project in high school. I thought the story was over the top and I made an "appropriate" layout with cartoon bombs and mock weekly world news style typography...In my defense my teacher didn't disagree with my assessment.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293077#Comment_293077 2011-05-03T19:40:25-07:00 2011-05-03T19:43:26-07:00 HEY APATHY! http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9019

@ Renthing and Alan (in particular)- I’m way finished playing the radical crazy nonsense internet debate game, I just wanted to say that as part of my business I go to New York fairly regularly ...

After all the eel-slinging rants this afternoon I tried to get a little work done but couldn’t stop thinking about my NY experiences & I broke down and fucking cried hard until I passed out, in fact I’m choking up again right now with tears running down my face. Anyways I just wanted you to know that I care deeply for those people and that city, every last nike wearing one of them and @Alan I got something positive from all of this (which is all your fault after all you started the thread HAH!). I can’t explain what but those little hairs stood up on the back of my neck tingling while I was crying and I learned something. So while I’ve no intention of opening/reading this thread ever again I wanted you guys to know that and @BOODOFSTAGE your words are like a koan to me now.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293082#Comment_293082 2011-05-03T20:05:32-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 KeeperofManyNames http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3394

I think it's worth noting that even as crazy as this discussion has gotten, it is still a few heads above basically any other conversation on this topic that I've seen on the net. That's why I keep ...

@Jon Wake:

The shoe analogy is a good one--one that resonates well with me, since it's a recurring motif in Shadow Of No Towers, and I've been so involved with that comic lately. I do think for many people it's become sort of a constant hovering shoe, a sword of Damocles that we know is there, but we live with and eventually become accustomed to.

So, I think the flip side of the celebration you're describing is, perhaps, bewilderment and disbelief. I mean, I've spent half my life living with this shoe, and not realizing it, and in the same moment I've been made aware that it exists and then told that it's gone.

That's like being told that the monster in your closet actually was real... but he's been killed by trained monster hunters. It's just kind of a paradigm shift.

I'm not sure if that makes a whole lot of sense, but I think it's another aspect of this that might be worth considering.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293083#Comment_293083 2011-05-03T20:12:23-07:00 2011-05-03T20:14:31-07:00 Pupato http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6150

from Franquin:

]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293103#Comment_293103 2011-05-03T23:46:09-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 BOODOFFSTAGE http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=914

your words are like a koan to me now. Um. Thanks. That was a compliment, right? ALso, i'd like to say that despite the volatile subject in this thread, and some precarious posts of passion(My ...

Um. Thanks. That was a compliment, right?

ALso, i'd like to say that despite the volatile subject in this thread, and some precarious posts of passion(My Stan lee, came out.Excelsior.)
I think we've managed to maintain civility. The fact that the thread hasn't been close is proof of that]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293105#Comment_293105 2011-05-04T00:09:41-07:00 2011-05-04T01:33:38-07:00 Vornaskotti http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6665

Pupato: Brief offtopic - thank you! I read that album when I was a kid, and never been sure whose was it - some really excellent comics there. Now that I'm reading this thread, I have to say ...

Brief offtopic - thank you! I read that album when I was a kid, and never been sure whose was it - some really excellent comics there.

Now that I'm reading this thread, I have to say that this is still one of the most sane I've read online anywhere. I can see what Hey Apathy! is doing here, but I just don't think this is the place to do it, and certainly the tone is wrong. Sometimes a little bit of trolling is in the sense that making people question their preconceptions is very important, but well - time and place, dude, time and place. In my experience Whitechapel is one of the really refreshing outposts online where one drop in and be reasonably sure that the people in the discussions know their arguments from their asshole. So, coming here to "shake things up a bit and make people think" mostly makes people go ho-hum, been there, done that in high school, got the T-shirt. We've had the same thing happen in our circle of friends' private channels - someone who very rarely visits them drops in and starts acting like a huge ass, and then exclaims that he just wanted to "shake things up and make people think". Cue facepalms.

Then to the actual topic. For our local political reasons I've been thinking about nations and nationalism quite a lot in the past months, and getting more and more sure that nationalism is currently one of the most destructive ideas gaining power here and there, globally. I'm a bit ambivalent about the whole OBL death party issue. I mean, it was a huge deal for the people from US - the youngest people who read Whitechapel have spent literally half of their life with that manhunt going on. The need for closure is understandable and can't really harp at people knocking back a few beers and going ding-dong-the-witch-is-dead.

Then again, stuff like this makes me sick to my stomach:

No dignity at Ground Zero

The scene at Ground Zero was like a parody of Team America, the film created by the South Park team to parody Bush's America gone wild on nationalism. Now that we've parodied the parody, can the frat boys go home and can we return to the revolutions of the Middle East and north Africa that symbolically killed Bin Laden months ago?]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293108#Comment_293108 2011-05-04T01:18:55-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

On the subject of nationalism, we have Doug Stanhope's bit about... Fuck the French Nationalism is idiotic. It's nothing more than tribalism on a grand scale.

Fuck the French

Nationalism is idiotic. It's nothing more than tribalism on a grand scale.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293117#Comment_293117 2011-05-04T03:26:51-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Erisah http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6180

What's the collective noun for a group of patriots?

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293135#Comment_293135 2011-05-04T05:08:27-07:00 2011-05-04T05:08:49-07:00 Oddcult http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214

Okay, for Milporn fans - looks like the helicopter that crashed and was blown up wasn't a Black Hawk. No one knows what it was. ...

http://defensetech.org/2011/05/03/secret-helo-may-have-been-used-in-bin-laden-raid/

Looks like the US has a stealthy special forces insertion helicopter they've kept black until now. Stealth bombers and drones are one thing and have been known about for ages, but stealthy helicopters that can get troops well across borders are something that haven't been previously thought operational.

It explains why Pakistan didn't react against the mission if they weren't informed about it though and makes it a damn gutsy move on Obama's part to make the call to go in without telling them. Just imagine if Pakistani air defences had moved against the mission. It would either have been aborted and Bin Laden would have fucked off, leading to major accusations of Pakistan harbouring him, or the US would have had to use aircraft that were doubtless around to tell Pakistani interceptors to fuck off, which would again have risked Bin Laden escaping and caused an incident too.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293146#Comment_293146 2011-05-04T06:09:34-07:00 2011-05-04T06:12:27-07:00 Erisah http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6180

There's enough of an incident as is, what with Pakistan annoyed* at the invasion, the US annoyed at the fact that UBL's compound was within spitting distance of a Pakistani military base while the ...

unarmed UBL who apparently didn't use wifey as a human shield. Director of the CIA mentioned something about rules of engagement and UBL being alive if he had surrendered properly or some such. Yeah, I'm sure we all believe that.
Bin Laden escaping would have been embarrassing for the US and Pakistan, but really, even if that eventuality wasn't kind of moot at this point, along with what Bin Laden may or may not have wanted as far as martyrdom vs standing in front of International Criminal Court, this was always going to be an "incident". The US has once again shown that it could give less of a shit about other countries' sovereignty when it comes to their goals, to the point of blatantly using their black ops units to put a hit on an infamous high priority target. The high-ups had to know that they were doing the diplomatic equivalent of pissing on the neighbour's garden gnomes in broad daylight, but they just don't give a shit, because they're AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!
It's sickening.

*for every "annoyed" read "(cautiously) livid".]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293148#Comment_293148 2011-05-04T06:26:32-07:00 2011-05-04T10:22:09-07:00 BrianMowrey http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1709

It's not sickening. We're flying bombs into Pakistan all the time and killing people, typically with far more murky distinctions between "militants" and civilians, typically with high rates ...

Are people really raising a stink over our methods here? With the president already authorizing the assassination of a US citizen last year, with an entire prison population of untried torture victims we've collected in the last decade, and hundreds and hundreds of pages already documenting that torture and obvious related deaths, just waiting for someone to give a damn, with elderly and mentally handicapped children being tasseled routinely in their own homes across the country, with unsuspectig fathers being shot dead for wielding a golfclub at swat officers who raided his home over personal-use drugs -- for people to fixate on whether Bin Laden was shot unarmed is hilarious and obscene.

It also doesn't do the other people in that paragraph one bit of good toward getting protection from the government. Give Bin Laden to hate and violence; let's focus on being shrill in defense of everyone else but him.

Edit: ha, auto correct. That was meant to be "tasered routinely." I hope no one is tasseling them routinely either]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293173#Comment_293173 2011-05-04T09:25:31-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Verissimus http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3379

The whole "US needs a boogeyman" theory is flawed in some respects. The CIA didn't create Bin Laden as a boogeyman, he did that himself when he ordered a few people to fly planes into the ...

And the fratboy style celebrations over his death, is that really such a huge thing to take issue with? The war on terror is real; it's a war being fought in ideas mostly, and military strikes and other violent altercations every now and then. Even the Arab spring is part of the war on Terror, in a way; an increase in democracy will certainly mean less opportunities for Al Qaeda-like organizations to recruit new angry young bombers. Libyans celebate when they strike a blow against Ghadaffi's interests, Americans celebrate when OBL is dead. That's just human nature. Writing an angry column complaining about a lack of dignity in those celebrations is fucking stupid.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293177#Comment_293177 2011-05-04T09:52:38-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

@Verus The theory of the boogeyman isn't that the US created them, only that the US used them to continue the fear. Bin Laden and Al Queda have been a thorn in the US's side for far longer than ...

The theory of the boogeyman isn't that the US created them, only that the US used them to continue the fear. Bin Laden and Al Queda have been a thorn in the US's side for far longer than 2001; they were, at least somewhat, linked to the original WTC bombing that happened under Clinton back in the '90's.

I'd argue that a boogeyman, in the context we're using the term, can be a real threat (such as Communism/Communist Russia in the '50's and '60's) or not (Saddam Hussein in the 2000's), but whether it's used to create an atmosphere of fear in order to push policy (OMG, we heard terrorists were going to put explosives in sodas! NO MORE BOTTLED SODAS CAN BE BROUGHT ON PLANES!) or not is what makes it a boogeyman.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293211#Comment_293211 2011-05-04T13:08:05-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 256 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4827

@Verus Even the Arab spring is part of the war on Terror, in a way; Really? The target of the revolutions in the Maghreb and Gulf states definitely seems to be their own despotic governments, not ...

Even the Arab spring is part of the war on Terror, in a way;

The theory of the boogeyman isn't that the US created them, only that the US used them to continue the fear.

Agreed that OBL/AlQ wasn't invented by the US as a boogeyman, but was utilized by them. It seems like "terrorism" was seized upon by a large group of people to promote different agendas - the military industrial complex, paranoid "security" freaks, even cultural extremists.

But it's worth remembering that the US actually did have something very important to do with the creation of OBL/AlQ - they clandestinely funded the Arab muhajideen in Afghanistan, where OBL first made his name as... An international terrorist.

Also, in re: your response upthread - I agree that blaming the victim is wrong. In fact, to go on a slight tangent, I think it's a pervasive and incredibly damaging cognitive bias within some groups. I have a theory that it explains some of the rightist/hypercapitalist perspectives that people have, but that's probably a discussion for another time.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293220#Comment_293220 2011-05-04T13:43:16-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 SilentObjector http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2587

@256, Well see, that's the beauty of the War On Terror moniker. If anything good happens in the vaguely defined region in which we spread our vaguely defined "no more bad things" banner of ...

Well see, that's the beauty of the War On Terror moniker. If anything good happens in the vaguely defined region in which we spread our vaguely defined "no more bad things" banner of military interventions, we get to take at least partial credit for it and continue our campaign of indiscriminate shit-wrecking in the region.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293222#Comment_293222 2011-05-04T13:47:32-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Verissimus http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3379

Really? The target of the revolutions in the Maghreb and Gulf states definitely seems to be their own despotic governments, not the limited number of international terrorist groups identified in the "War on Terror".

(Notice that several of the governments being protested against or overthrown are ones that have been supported by European nations (including the UK) and the US, with arms sales and oil money.)

Of course, that's all true. The Arab spring may be larger in scope than the war on terror, so I guess it's wrong of me to say that they are part of it; but they are related. The Arab Spring makes it seem like countries in the Middle East are finding their own voice, like an emancipatory movement, a movement towards modernity and maturity. Terrorism grew largely out of the Middle Eastern people's dissatisfaction with their leadership, and the Arab Spring seems like a more measured and effective expression of that dissatisfaction.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293224#Comment_293224 2011-05-04T14:03:58-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 RenThing http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155

@256 Sure, it can be argued that the US had a hand in the creation of Osama. There's been an arguable cascade of events that can all be traced back to our meddling with Iran. If we hadn't fucked ...

Sure, it can be argued that the US had a hand in the creation of Osama. There's been an arguable cascade of events that can all be traced back to our meddling with Iran. If we hadn't fucked around with Iran then it, quite possibly wouldn't be in the state it is now. If we hadn't meddled with Iran, we may not have had to side with Saddam in the Iraq/Iran war. Whether or not there would've been an OBL is arguable since I believe he came to being in part because of US attempting to oppose USSR movement into Afghanistan.

@Verus

the Arab Spring seems like a more measured and effective expression of that dissatisfaction.

Which is one of the reasons put forward for why Al Queda has been largely not present in the various uprisings (though some of the fighters in Libya have admitted they have worked for/with Al Queda in the past).]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293261#Comment_293261 2011-05-04T18:19:26-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 ScottBieser http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=477

Personally, I will withhold my celebrating until the last TSA goon is hung by the entrails of the last DHS bureaucrat (following, of course, their trials for treason against the U.S. Constitution). ...

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293282#Comment_293282 2011-05-04T20:10:32-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Fan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6919

I'd argue that a boogeyman, in the context we're using the term, can be a real threat (such as Communism/Communist Russia in the '50's and '60's) Apparently I once said, in the early 70s, that it ...

I'd argue that a boogeyman, in the context we're using the term, can be a real threat (such as Communism/Communist Russia in the '50's and '60's)

Apparently I once said, in the early 70s, that it was the US and not the USSR that was "greatest threat to world peace". My Dad reminded me of that, a year or two ago: I think he told me that events had proved me right.

The one thing I used to ask of the American president, when I was young, is that he not press The Button. So far even Bush has managed that.

Yeah. The CIA *did*, kind of literally, create Osama bin L.: his first gig after leaving college was to arrive in Pakistan, to be trained (using CIA money and weapons) as a mujuhideen to attack the Soviets in Afghanistan. It was there, in Afghanistan, that he founded al-Qaeda, "where it was agreed to join bin Laden's money with the expertise of the Islamic Jihad organization and take up the jihadist cause elsewhere after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan".

@Apathy - There are supposed to be three 'poisons' at the centre/hub of the Wheel of Life: ignorance, attachment, and anger (represented by a pig, a bird, and a snake). I suppose you're saying that, to the extent that everyone is guilty of these three 'sins', no-one is 'innocent'. Perhaps you're hurt by wishing that the world were better than it is.

I'd like to say that I don't approve of killing. I'm a vegetarian, because I don't approve. But for Obama who lived by the sword to die by it seems ... well, to me, it does seem like justice. I'm afraid that it (killing him) won't promote world peace in the way that turning the other cheek might, theoretically, but it's quite consistent with how I expect people (the American armed forces) to react.

It's actually a part of how I react too. I remember: when I was in (boarding) school, there was an evening where the new boys gathered for some kind of initiation ceremony, a tiny part of which included chanting "Sieg Heil" to the prefects: in a totally ironic/mocking way, of course. But I found that experience, of chanting/shouting in unison to be quite memorable, taking me out of myself ... surprisingly attractive, invigorating, and therefore disturbing. I think I learned something about myself, that I'm able, perhaps that 'we' are able as humans for neurological/psychological/sociological/emotional reasons, to participate in group behaviour. Anyway that's what I'm reminded of, when I hear "U-S-A, U-S-A" ... or, a sports chant.

In terms of innocence, I'm not sure what to suggest. Getting ready for your own death, I suppose, not entirely a bad thing. Trying to live a 'harmless' or 'low-impact' life, as much as you're able, is something that some people recommend. Others say that the ends (e.g. peace) justify the means (e.g. killing). Buddhism (getting back to your 'koan' talk) suggests that in fact the "means" are the Eightfold Way. The Eightfold way doesn't really tell me a lot about what sort of job to have, about how to earn my living. Or at least, it does tell me but I don't find what it tells me to be very difficult/restrictive: the only scruple I've needed is to avoid applying for jobs in the 'defence' industry, and that's another check-mark: I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people (working in the WTC, or flying) might claim to be 'innocent' by that standard.

I'm afraid there's a lot 'wrong' with the world but blaming people, blaming the victim, seems immoderate or unskillful.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293286#Comment_293286 2011-05-04T20:45:43-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 William George http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7366

But for Obama who lived by the sword to die by it seems... Oh noes! FoxNews fan! ;)

But for Obama who lived by the sword to die by it seems...

Oh noes! FoxNews fan! ;)]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293288#Comment_293288 2011-05-04T20:54:31-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Fan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6919

You're right (that that was a slip, not that I watch FoxNews). I used to watch CNN but switched it off a few months after 9/11.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293292#Comment_293292 2011-05-04T22:16:02-07:00 2011-05-04T22:16:25-07:00 Erisah http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6180

@William George: *groan* I see what you did there.

Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293300#Comment_293300 2011-05-04T23:45:30-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 roadscum http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7712

No pictures eh? You know what that means... I need to go and buy some thicker tinfoil. Seriously though, there's no way they can win with this one, pictures are trophies or evidence of savagery or ...

Seriously though, there's no way they can win with this one, pictures are trophies or evidence of savagery or photoshopped. No photos, well, like i said... This one's going to run and run.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293302#Comment_293302 2011-05-05T00:37:44-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Jon Wake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1684

Something that needs to be cleared up here. The US, under the Reagen administration, sent millions of dollars to the Mudjahedin in Afghanistan, but not directly. There were very few field ...

The US, under the Reagen administration, sent millions of dollars to the Mudjahedin in Afghanistan, but not directly. There were very few field operatives on the ground. Most of the money went to Pakistan, who sent the money to Mudjas-- most of which were not remotely like the Taliban, none of whom agreed on anything other than hating the Soviets.

Osama bin Laden was nominated or volunteered (sources vary) to go to Afghanistan to give the Mudjas an 'attaboy' from the Saudi's. Bin Laden wasn't royalty, but he was the next best thing, and none of the royals would be caught dead more than a mile away from a decent golf course. While in Afghanistan, it's unclear if bin Laden was directly trained, or the extent of his training, but we do know he didn't stick around for too much of the fighting. He was a money man-- he funneled money from the Pakistanis, the Saudis, and anyone else who had a few million bucks to burn. In the process, he became very well connected.

It's disingenuous to say that the 'US created bin Laden'. Maybe in a wishy-washy 'created an environment he could exploit' way, but the man made his own decisions.

Saddam, on the other hand--we totally propped that guy up. Pretty much kept his presidency afloat back in the late 70's. Given, he hated Iran, and in the late 70's, Iran was being just a peach internationally.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293315#Comment_293315 2011-05-05T03:37:46-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 bjacques http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2157

What Jon Wake said. Taliban !=Mujahideen. The US supported rebels in the 1980s, unfortunately the most violent and crooked ones (like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar). When the occupying Red Army used Hind ...

Taliban !=Mujahideen. The US supported rebels in the 1980s, unfortunately the most violent and crooked ones (like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar). When the occupying Red Army used Hind gunships to hunt them down, the US supplied Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, via the sticky-fingered Pakistanis. But once the Soviets pulled out, the US immediately lost interest. The more successful rebels established themselves as warlords and went back to their traditional pastimes of "robbery, blood feuds and murder-for-fun," as the once humorous humorist P.J.O'Rourke once put it.

The Taliban came later. In the mid-1990s, Pakistan cultivated and supported the Taliban, whose harsh but stable rule the locals (well, not the women) considered an improvement over the arbitrary whims of the local warlord. It's why the Taliban were able to govern Afghanistan more thoroughly than anyone else had managed to.

Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda and the Taliban got along, but not as closely as people think. Bin Laden was a city slicker while the Taliban were barely literate rednecks. The Taliban were on the point of throwing al-Qaeda out in 2000 or 2001, but bin Laden bought his way back into their good graces by arranging a hit on a particularly troublesome warlord. That relationship would explain somewhat the aggrieved Taliban reaction to US demands to hand over bin Laden after 9/11. They didn't like him much, but hospitality is sacred there. Since then, the Taliban and al-Qaeda might as well have been joined at the hip.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293319#Comment_293319 2011-05-05T04:28:57-07:00 2011-05-05T04:30:44-07:00 Jon Wake http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1684

About the 90's Taliban, the Pakistanis basically *were* the Taliban. There was only about 14,000 Afghans in the Taliban, the rest (40,000-60,000) were Pakistanis sent there by Pervez 'oh shit, bin ...

On September 9, 2001, Massoud was assassinated by Bin Laden's operatives in exchange for security from the impending manhunt he knew would come on the 11th.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293354#Comment_293354 2011-05-05T10:47:44-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 doclivingston http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2318

A rundown of the latest information, regarding how the SEAL team actually dealt with the men and women in the compound. Basically adds up to, yes, they went in having already decided to kill Bin ...

A rundown of the latest information, regarding how the SEAL team actually dealt with the men and women in the compound. Basically adds up to, yes, they went in having already decided to kill Bin Laden instead of capturing. Him in particular not being allowed to surrender doesn't bother me but I understand it's a bit of an issue for others. What does bug me is the total tally of unarmed who were shot dead immediately. But it is what it is. Thousands upon thousands of unnecessary deaths have already happened because of Bin Laden's attack and America's reaction to it. This sounds horrible, but a handful more doesn't make me feel critical of the operation to take him out.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293359#Comment_293359 2011-05-05T11:38:52-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 Miranda's Eyes http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1443

Republican-dominated House refuses to honor Navy SEALS who nailed bin Laden. Gee, this couldn't have anything to do with partisan politics, could it?

refuses to honor Navy SEALS who nailed bin Laden. Gee, this couldn't have anything to do with partisan politics, could it?]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293360#Comment_293360 2011-05-05T11:39:11-07:00 2011-05-05T11:39:51-07:00 256 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4827

On the Pakistani sovereignty issue - this is one of the things I actually find most clear cut about the whole deal: If you're looking for a terrorist mastermind, who has been evading you for a ...

If you're looking for a terrorist mastermind, who has been evading you for a decade, and it turns out that for at least several years he's been living comfortably in same place, in the heart of a country that is:
a) nominally an ally
but
b) long suspected to have been sheltering and supporting various other terrorists
and
c) deeply corrupt, with the army/intelligence services frequently overwhelming the democratic government
then yes, absolutely, violate that country's sovereignty to achieve your goal.

If it had been another country, I think there would be questions about it. But I really think that cooperating with Pakistan would have automatically fucked the whole operation.

@Jon Wake

Pervez 'oh shit, bin Laden was in my rotary club?' Musharraf.

I genuinely LOL'd.
Also, thanx for the insight on Afghan/Pakistani politics.]]> Bin Laden Killed in Pakistan http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9829&Focus=293361#Comment_293361 2011-05-05T11:39:41-07:00 2013-05-23T14:32:04-07:00 warrenellis http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2

I think everyone's had enough time to get this out of their systems now.