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1. • CommentAuthorRenThing
   • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011 edited

    (9829.141)
   @Hey Apathy!
   
   you just said 3000 american deaths are worth more than the mistreatment of the entire 2 & 3rd world populus and the environment.
   
   So, those 3,000 American deaths were directly responsible for the mistreatment of, as you say, "2 & 3rd world populus and the environment"?
   
   Janitors who worked in the WTC?
   The people who were grabbing a bite to eat in some of the eateries along the bottom of the building?
   The people passing in the street who were crushed by debris?
   The fire-fighters who ran in to try and save lives? The police as well?
   The people who were just taking a plane across country, some probably for business, some possibly for pleasure?
   
   I'd argue that the reason why it appears the oceans are turning brown to you is the color of the opinions you're filling up with. Those people were victims, they died because hateful people took over planes and tried to do our country harm.
   
   Your opinion of "Well, that's what we get for what we do" is no different than the bloke who tells a rape victim "If you hadn't worn that short skirt, you wouldn't have been assaulted."
2. • CommentAuthor256
   • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

    (9829.142)
   @RenThing - I think the important point, which often seems to be lost, is that terrorists aren't just pantomime villains. Though the results of their actions may be unambiguously horrendous and evil, it doesn't follow that their motivation is as simple as "DO EVIL". To them, their actions make sense. And it's worth investigating why - for the same reason that it's worth trying to understand the mind of, say, a serial killer - to better prevent it from happening again.
3. • CommentAuthorMiranda's Eyes
   • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

    (9829.143)
   So now there are signs that the US government lied about certain details about bin Laden's death. It's one thing to kill somebody who was going to shoot back. But what if bin Laden was unarmed when he was killed...and the US soldiers knew it? It also doesn't help that the media didn't display any reasonable degree of skepticism.
4. • CommentAuthorRenThing
   • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

    (9829.144)
   @256
   
   And that's all well and good, but you don't blame the victim of a murder because society helped the murderer along, do you? No.
   
   There may be circumstances behind why a person does what they do but, in the end, there is still the personal choice of the individual to take the actions they do; the victim, unless they actively had a hand in what caused the person to get to that point, is blameless except in some extremely loose, ideological, maybe-if-we-can-squint-we-can-kind-of-see-it fashion.
5. • CommentAuthorgovernment spy
   • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

    (9829.145)

   It's one thing to kill somebody who was going to shoot back.

   
   
   Not when we're talking about Bin Laden. All bets are off. We weren't there. And "shoot back" can mean several things (as in, he gets away, and "shoots back" with suicide bomber retaliation). Trying to bring him in as a live capture would have been extremely difficult even if he was unarmed.
   
   I've said it before, but I don't think some people get it. Do you think bringing him in alive would have been a better idea? Explain that to me.
6. •  
     CommentAuthorjoe.distort
   • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

    (9829.146)
   EELS
7. •  
     CommentAuthorJon Wake
   • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

    (9829.147)
   No, I think there's a need to feel morally superior-- which is easy when no responsibility falls on your shoulders. If the choice is to put a round in a mass murderers head, or try and tackle him and hope he doesn't have a grenade on him, you don't think twice.
8. •  
     CommentAuthorHEY APATHY!
   • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011 edited

    (9829.148)
   @ RenThing- I'm gonna have some fun with this and really p--s some people off.
   
   I kind of think that we are all responsible. There is no "society", or Kierkegaardien "crowd" just thousands of individual people who don't care what happens to anyone else. The scary part is that the repercussions of our lifestyles are so hidden, even brainwashed into invisibility that we refuse to be held accountable every time we go and just:
   
   grab a bite of drugged up mass produced tortured animals and genetically altered food stuff pumped full of sugar harvested on plantations wrapped in tinfoil and Styrofoam to eat in some of the eateries along the bottom of the building
   
   the people passing in the street wearing sweatshop running shoes and designer shirts that cost enough to feed a family of five for a month,
   
   (ok I can't touch the fire fighters, it's an honorable position and is terrible they lost there lives because of all this lunacy)
   
   join a pseudo military boys club built on racial profiling & bullyish control, ready to attack the public like barbarians at the beck and call of the G20
   
   The people who were just flying around a bravenew world paid for by bloody business and accessible only for the pleasures of wealthy folk?
   
   I'm mean you don't get a title like "the great satan" for nothing, sure those people who call us that are just savages but that's what they think of us
   
   It's hard for me to imagine it too but just say a whole bunch of brown people kept showing up in you're neighborhoods with guns telling you what to think, what to believe, stole your resources and gave you coca-cola when you don't even have water, you might consider taking drastic actions also. I am by no means an terrorist nor extremist sympathizer though, which exactly why I can't side with the either party.
   
   also there's no need to call my opinions names- I respect your thoughts and am really just pushing the ideas, I don't think anyone is in the right here the situation is not as simple as that
9. •  
     CommentAuthordoclivingston
   • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

    (9829.149)
   @Miranda's Eyes: it looks more like John Brennan (and likely a few other officials) was just misinformed and the media ran with what he was telling, and there was some ambiguity about the events until a full debriefing could occur. Which isn't the government lying.
10. • CommentAuthorgovernment spy
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

     (9829.150)
    @hey apathy
    
    Have some class, please.
11. •  
      CommentAuthorHEY APATHY!
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011 edited

     (9829.151)
    @ gov spy- elaborate?
12. •  
      CommentAuthordoclivingston
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

     (9829.152)
    Apathy, first, your thoughts and insights aren't particularly novel. Most of what you're saying is obvious. Because it's reality. Second, you need to back off the "deliberately trying to piss people off" posturing.
    
    Your initial comment suggested that the people who died on 9/11 directly brought about their own deaths. Blatantly false, but if you want to think that, fine. But it's a pointless thought. All crimes, all horrible things, can be traced back endlessly to an endless number of contributing factors. But at the end of the day, there has to be a criminal to hold accountable for a crime. The victims of 9/11 were victims, and trying to frame their role differently reeks of arrogance and inhumanity.
    
    Yes, the way the world works is unfortunate. But blaming the victim is and always will be antithetical to any true justice. What you keep going on about, we all already know. And it's a discussion worth having, but not the way you're trying to have it.
13. •  
      CommentAuthorJon Wake
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

     (9829.153)
    Moral certainty is the purview of those with no serious choices to make.
14. •  
      CommentAuthorJon Wake
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

     (9829.154)
    @hey-apathy
    
    So what you're saying, is: "She shouldn't have worn that dress."
15. •  
      CommentAuthorHEY APATHY!
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011 edited

     (9829.155)
    my apologies - I really shouldn't be deliberately trying to piss people off and most of what I said very confrontational, I just have to wonder if we questioned reality a little more if we couldn't avoid such terrible things again in the future.
    
    it's a discussion worth having, but not the way you're trying to have it - you're right my experiment is flawed and negative, but I hope it at least makes people think a little about all sides of this despite my miserable approach.
    
    
    again sorry for my theatre of the extreme
16. •  
      CommentAuthorJP Stargazer
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011 edited

     (9829.156)
    Tough subject. Where's the truth about all this?? And according to who's viewpoint? Who's right and who's wrong and why??!! Nevertheless, nice timing for this to happen. Just when everybody's aiming at Obama's throat for many, many reasons.
    
    I do have on thing to question: people celebrating in the streets Bin Laden's death. Yes, 9/11 was terrible, but do yo think that's the right reaction? Celebrating someone's death as if it where some football team winning the superbowl?? YOU should show some class. Bin Laden was a human being. He was not an extraterrestrial, he was not some 6thdimensional demon; he also was a human being. You may think that I'm to soft, but I think that if people don't realise that, there will never be a true evolution in human rights. If he was a criminal, judge him as such. Show some hardproof evidence (I'm not saying there wasn't any, just that let's not forget WHO armed Osama in the firstplace). Yeah, I also like to suck Michael Moore's wrinkled cock.
    
    And, anyway, where's the body?! How can you claim he's dead??? ... Pfff, he's probably in a beach now, hanging with Elvis, Michael and Georgie Bush.
17. •  
      CommentAuthorHEY APATHY!
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011 edited

     (9829.157)
    @ JP don't worry I'm just getting outta here
18. • CommentAuthorRenThing
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011 edited

     (9829.158)
    @Hey Apathy
    
    No matter how you further clarify it, it is still victim blaming.
    
    Re: respecting your opinion - I do not have to respect an opinion, simply because it is held.
    
    @doclivingston
    
    Yes, the way the world works is unfortunate. But blaming the victim is and always will be antithetical to any true justice. What you keep going on about, we all already know. And it's a discussion worth having, but not the way you're trying to have it.
    
    Thank you. Your second point is especially good.
19. •  
      CommentAuthorJP Stargazer
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011

     (9829.159)
    I'd like to clarify something: I do think that Osama Bin Laden was a criminal and I do think that he had to answer for his crimes.
    
    But please, don't try to sell me this crap! "Oh, hey, look, guys!! We got OSama's head!! We rock!! The world's safer now!! Everything's all right! We're God's little pet people and he pointed us where the fucker was hiding!! All right!! Everybody, the party's at the White House's awesome yard, tonight!!"
20. •  
      CommentAuthorHEY APATHY!
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2011 edited

     (9829.160)
    yes, She shouldn't have worn that dress if it was made in a sweatshop by a malnourished slave who never got the chance to learn how to read
    
    
    I don't blame the victims of the USA's empirical selfish greedy superiority complex ideology for wanting to blow the USA up.