Whitechapel - 'Manga' - Where is the line? Tue, 21 May 2013 10:50:58 -0700 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.1.4 & Feed Publisher 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299325#Comment_299325 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299325#Comment_299325 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 13:58:23 -0700 nep
O.k., obviously all 'manga' isn't 'porn, but where do we draw the line? Or do you at all?

From the post (circulated on other blogs BTW) there is a call for support but no info on what the images contained.

How is it for you? Is everything to be defended, or are there limits?

ETA: To unhyperlink. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299332#Comment_299332 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299332#Comment_299332 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:32:45 -0700 HEY APATHY! there is a call for support but no info on what the images contained

which makes the whole article absolutely impossible to decipher. I ain't giving anyone money who won't really tell me what that money is for.

Eli Langer was an artist charged in Canada for his work, his story was interesting, some might like to investigate it as well. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299335#Comment_299335 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299335#Comment_299335 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:51:26 -0700 Richard Pace
Canadian Customs have a long history confiscating materials safe for both ownership and sale within the country and this, at first glance, seems to be an extension of their behaviour into personal material on electronic devices.

While the actual content spawning the charge hasn't been made clear, that it's manga, therefore no children were victimized in its production and it's quite possible the issue is once raised by not being visually literate in contemporary Japanese-inspired comics. That aside, it doesn't matter if it actually is drawn representations of sexual acts involving a minor, the person charged deserves a vigorous defense if not for his freedom but to ensure that the boundaries of what is currently allowable to be better defined by the process and to ensure works of merit are rightly protected against government censorship.

I recall the horrible decision rendered upon Mike Diana -- the judge barred him from drawing and gave the police warrantless 24-hour access to his premises to enforce it.

~R ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299337#Comment_299337 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299337#Comment_299337 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:59:02 -0700 William George
1. Canadian Customs has long been despised by nearly every Canadian who has ever traveled or ordered something from another country. I hope this guy manages to kick their asses because it's long overdue.

2. If it IS kiddy porn, drawn or otherwise, fuck him. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299340#Comment_299340 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299340#Comment_299340 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:04:26 -0700 BrianMowrey which makes the whole article absolutely impossible to decipher. I ain't giving anyone money who won't really tell me what that money is for.
The money is for CBLDF's efforts in this case. It is not a "get dude out of jail" fund, it is a "give a vigorous defense so that the appropriate decision can be reached in court fund". Not that you don't still have plenty right to want to know more, first, or to be against their efforts regardless. I would just assume that as far as these things go the material prolly isn't going to be inspiring of sympathy; and as far as these things go it prolly isn't going to be something someone should go to jail for regardless.

But the money is for CBDLF and they will spend it on doing what they are going to do. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299342#Comment_299342 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299342#Comment_299342 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:13:52 -0700 used_bandaid
Its really hard to comment without seeing the pictures as well. But in the end I don't think someone should be label as a pedo and sent to jail because of the content in a comic book.
They are drawings and although the content may offend... they are still just drawings. There is no victim.

The idea that people have to be frightened of traveling with comics is just ridiculous. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299348#Comment_299348 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299348#Comment_299348 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:21:42 -0700 BrianMowrey Lost Girls in their bag if they're crossing into Canada ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299349#Comment_299349 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299349#Comment_299349 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:35:47 -0700 James Puckett Salo, a D-grade Italian exploitation film based on The 120 Days of Sodom that portrays underage actors being graphically raped and mutilated (sometimes simultaneously). So it seems that the crime here is carrying erotic art that is neither old enough to be antique or beloved by bad movie critics. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299352#Comment_299352 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299352#Comment_299352 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:57:40 -0700 DC 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299358#Comment_299358 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299358#Comment_299358 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:05:26 -0700 James Puckett Manara is going to be in big trouble if he sets foot on Canada...

Hasn't Canada stopped some issues of Heavy Metal with his work in it? I know for sure that they stopped some of the Serpieri's Druuna stories. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299363#Comment_299363 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299363#Comment_299363 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:42:31 -0700 DC 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299369#Comment_299369 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299369#Comment_299369 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 21:11:46 -0700 D.J. drawn, there is no victim. No victim, no crime. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299373#Comment_299373 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299373#Comment_299373 Fri, 24 Jun 2011 21:37:38 -0700 James Puckett Heavy Metal letters from the editor, but that's a lot of old stuff to sift through. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299376#Comment_299376 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299376#Comment_299376 Sat, 25 Jun 2011 01:36:50 -0700 razrangel
So I really don't know what the standards are in Canada and I wouldn't speak to them. But since you asked for opinions, I say this. Even manga that is straightforward porn should be defended. Manga that teeters on any "line" should be defended. If the content of the manga is too much for me I won't buy or read it. But I'll defend anyone's right to own it. Only if manga somehow requires real, living people who are underage would I hedge. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299393#Comment_299393 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299393#Comment_299393 Sat, 25 Jun 2011 08:55:29 -0700 government spy
Somebody mentioned having to see the pictures before passing judgement.

If it's a drawing, unless a child was posed for the picture, doesn't that make it impossible for a child to be exploited for this?

Didn't Gaiman say something to the effect of where do you stand on drawings of murder? ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299396#Comment_299396 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299396#Comment_299396 Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:08:32 -0700 Nil Offences Tending to Corrupt Morals" in the Canadian criminal code.

The most important section seems to be this one:

163.1 (1) In this section, “child pornography” means

(a) a photographic, film, video or other visual representation, whether or not it was made by electronic or mechanical means,

(i) that shows a person who is or is depicted as being under the age of eighteen years and is engaged in or is depicted as engaged in explicit sexual activity, or

(ii) the dominant characteristic of which is the depiction, for a sexual purpose, of a sexual organ or the anal region of a person under the age of eighteen years;


While I agree with commenters above that drawn material shouldn't be dealt with in the same fashion as, say, explicit photographs of actual children, Canadian law appears to do just that.

Usual disclaimers apply - I am not a lawyer, I am not familiar with the Canadian criminal code, etc. As noted above, there's been no mention of exactly what is portrayed in the offending material.

EDITED TO ADD: The sections on defence and question of law, which might be of some interest

Defence

(6) No person shall be convicted of an offence under this section if the act that is alleged to constitute the offence

(a) has a legitimate purpose related to the administration of justice or to science, medicine, education or art; and

(b) does not pose an undue risk of harm to persons under the age of eighteen years.

Question of law

(7) For greater certainty, for the purposes of this section, it is a question of law whether any written material, visual representation or audio recording advocates or counsels sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen years that would be an offence under this Act.


2ND EDIT: A bit off-topic, but Canadian law also appears to make "crime comics" illegal. What exactly constitutes a crime comic?

Definition of “crime comic”

(7) In this section, “crime comic” means a magazine, periodical or book that exclusively or substantially comprises matter depicting pictorially

(a) the commission of crimes, real or fictitious; or

(b) events connected with the commission of crimes, real or fictitious, whether occurring before or after the commission of the crime.


Once again, not a lawyer, but that seems rather wide-ranging to me. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299397#Comment_299397 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299397#Comment_299397 Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:14:18 -0700 mercurialblonde
And if Canadian law treats drawn art the same as photography, someone should draw Obama having sex with a minor and then turn said photo over to the police and demand his arrest. Since you have photographic evidence of his molestation of a fictional minor. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299503#Comment_299503 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299503#Comment_299503 Sun, 26 Jun 2011 07:53:11 -0700 agentarsenic
I draw the line at explicit images of pre-sexual humans, mangafied or not. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299509#Comment_299509 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299509#Comment_299509 Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:54:32 -0700 BrianMowrey I think that was the reason laws against such things are passed, to prevent the perversion of the mind.
Sure, but depicted child sex or child nudity can't own the exclusive rights to making people child molesters. What if I get that way from commercials of fully clothed children eating cereal? What if I get that way from just seeing real children at the swimming pool when I myself am still a child, though maybe an older one in his teens? Perversion happens. Do we think that the Catholic priest molestation phenomenon has its roots in secret porn stashes that previously healthy priests bought due to complete pure curiosity? I doubt that cart ever came before the horse for any molester priest.

If we see someone having a lot of child porn it's probably not a good sign; if we see someone having a thousand pages of clip-outs from the Sears kidwear catalogue it's just as worrying. Again, the way it often goes when a specific obscenity case becomes news is typically that the material in question is disturbing -- but the reason we have to keep the law from punishing art production or consumption is because art is not a crime. No more than building swimming pools is a crime.

Typed on mobile ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299510#Comment_299510 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299510#Comment_299510 Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:04:24 -0700 Wood
BUT ! He certainly doesn't need to be punished for it, because HE HAS NOT HARMED ANYBODY.

Thinking about a crime and being aroused by it is not the same as committing it. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299528#Comment_299528 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299528#Comment_299528 Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:04:49 -0700 VertigoJones
I'd be interested in seeing genuine figures on the ratio of people owning material that is qualifiable as drawn "child pornography" and the actual people on offenders lists who are actually convicted for child molestation or the ownership of photographic child porn material.
I would suggest that most "normal" people would find Guro deeply disturbing, but I very much think that the number of people eating people during sex is rather lower than the amount of people who actually "own" such material. And what of the question of intent to own, I've bought a number of Japanese anthologies of comics that contained seriously questionable material, though when I was purchasing them I couldn't tell, as they were shinkwrapped, and I buy my Japanese artbooks like I buy my novels, by judging by the cover-art and I'm not going to throw out a £25.00 anthology because of one part of the content. Anyone downloading (naughty, naughty! Different argument) manga en masse, is going to stumble across such material, because it's not a niche market in Japan. It's as common as Wolverine is in every single Marvel product, So, think about the amount of guest appearances Wolvie will make this month (845) and replace it with issues of comics about violating schoolgirls.

It's not the laws job to "prevent perversion of the mind". It's part of the law's role to prevent harm, apparently. Perversion of the mind is a persons own business till they are lubing up the neighbours cat, committing an actual action, which is where the harm comes in.
There's a great difference , I'd say about 100%, between having interests and desires and acting on them, Noone should question for an instant that acting upon them is not categorically wrong, but, If it is so important that such censoring be done due to a belief that drawn images can incite deviant behaviour. I find it absurd that child pornography specifically is targetted at the exclusion of all else, when there is other, massively disturbing and traumatising acts in manga that don't seem to raise any concern at all. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299530#Comment_299530 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299530#Comment_299530 Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:23:40 -0700 D.J.
As much as I definitely agree with it being messed up (we live in a messed world), a lot of people who read those types of things don't want to be attracted to children. They delve into fantasy because they can't have reality, knowing that it would be wrong. It's a long line to cross. There's plenty of people, probably even someone you know, who often roleplay rape underneath the sheets, but should we be worried about them all going out and raping someone? Not really. In a way, someone being attracted to children isn't really different than someone being attracted to redheads, the problem is that they can go to a bar and pick up a redhead without hurting anyone. The same doesn't apply to going to the park and picking up a child.

@VertigoJones
While maybe not in quite the same category, there's also loads and loads of disturbing shit that we've all read in comics by Warren Ellis and etcetera. Should I be worried about crossing the border with my trade of Crossed? ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299541#Comment_299541 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299541#Comment_299541 Sun, 26 Jun 2011 17:05:35 -0700 William George My opinion is that if someone is sexually aroused by drawn images of child sex, he probably needs help. Help from a professional, and maybe a support group.

Or someone to buy them a bullet for their pistol so they can do the right thing. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299568#Comment_299568 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299568#Comment_299568 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 01:59:37 -0700 Ben Klumaster Or someone to buy them a bullet for their pistol so they can do the right thing.
You're saying that a person can never change, nor be trusted to master and contain their own demons? ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299580#Comment_299580 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299580#Comment_299580 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 08:22:23 -0700 aike Or someone to buy them a bullet for their pistol so they can do the right thing.

You would have to shoot 95% of the male population of this planet. Biological attraction is generally triggered by far younger ages than our social system deems appropriate (normal adult males will be biologically attracted to females of late tweens/beginning teens age group, when fertility begins). In the vast majority of cases, it is normal and perfectly harmless - social constraints and protective measures prevail. In the cases where an adult is sexually attracted to a child and is not in control, or the attraction is obviously warped (either age or manner of attraction), there are invariably serious psychological issues at work (more often than not as a result of sexual abuse) that can be worked with. Help and intervention is needed prior to it getting out of hand. Overblown outrage and stigmatization is not helpful, either to the inevitable victims or the perpetrator. That does not mean that any such intent is okay nor can any action be excused, but a functional pre-emptive help system is far more effective than knee-jerk "Look at me, I'm more outraged than you." reactions, that just drive people underground and away from help. The message should be "Don't do it, we'll help you." before it is too late, not "Fuck you, die." after it is too late.

Is there a place for Art here? Absolutely. Is it a problem/topic worth taking about rationally, recognizing, discussing, out in the open without frothing at the mouth? Absolutely. Is there a place for real kiddie pr0n and child abusers? Absolutely not. It's a pretty easy distinction to make in my mind. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299587#Comment_299587 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299587#Comment_299587 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 10:39:47 -0700 agentarsenic
You seem to forget that lolicon is not the standard 14 year old Japanese schoolgirls in their uniforms. The material that man possessed undoubtedly included depictions of children under the age of ten, pre-pubescents. That doesn't fall under the realm of healthy adult lust, it falls under utter depravity and invokes in other people, parents especially, the basic human instincts of protecting our young ones.

If a man in my community was outed for possessing lolicon, and showed up at my community's public pool - I believe the reaction I and others would take would be the same as in the film Little Children - get the kids out of the pool and behind us.

As for the subject of Art, with a Capitol A, lolicon artists draw pictures to be certain, the pictures themselves may be technically proficient, but that hardly makes them "Art". I doubt you'll see a gallery featuring lolicon anytime soon. To be clear, some of the same type of situations found I. Lolicon can be found in Lost Girls, but Lost Girls treated the subject matter deftly and did not feature children. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299589#Comment_299589 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299589#Comment_299589 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:35:38 -0700 RenThing
I'm not defending the guy but statements like this bother me:

The material that man possessed undoubtedly included depictions of children under the age of ten, pre-pubescents

Do you know what images the Canadian border police found? Were they actually what you describe? Until you know what material he actually had, perhaps you shouldn't start assuming you know? ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299596#Comment_299596 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299596#Comment_299596 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:22:01 -0700 sellmeyoursoul
I have no idea what's in those comics, but at the end of the day they're comics! I am much more uncomfortable with the end of the slippery slope for preventing perversion of the mind than I am the one where we let sexual deviants see comics that feature their perversion. The law is never going to protect everyone. We live in a dangerous world, where there are bad people. Trying to preemptively prevent the bad people from being bad is doomed to failure and will harm a lot more innocent people in the process.

Count me among the "no one was harmed, there is no crime" camp. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299600#Comment_299600 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299600#Comment_299600 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:37:14 -0700 BrianMowrey but Lost Girls treated the subject matter deftly and did not feature children.
You may want to revisit it, like half the naked bodies in 'story-mode' are pretty clearly underage.

That doesn't fall under the realm of healthy adult lust, it falls under utter depravity and invokes in other people, parents especially, the basic human instincts of protecting our young ones.

I am not sure where you are going in this part, if you are making a point about the court case and legal issues. Is your comment here a point in of itself or something that related to what you think police and courts should do to people based on media consumption habits?

If so, I defer to what sellmeyoursoul just said about danger and preemption

Typed on mobile ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299601#Comment_299601 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299601#Comment_299601 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:40:27 -0700 DC
In the case of the manga seized was an american translated edition, isn't it policy of comicbook publishers to have a statement saying all the characters depicted are adults? If this is the case, I could see this all flushed out quickly due to those statements.
Edit for typos ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299603#Comment_299603 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299603#Comment_299603 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:46:11 -0700 BrianMowrey
A funny twist to this case would be that the publisher of whatever this dude had could just release some new issues wherein that becomes the backstory. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299604#Comment_299604 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299604#Comment_299604 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:46:31 -0700 James Puckett You seem to forget that lolicon is not the standard 14 year old Japanese schoolgirls in their uniforms. The material that man possessed undoubtedly included depictions of children under the age of ten, pre-pubescents.

You seem to be very familiar with this stuff. How come you aren't in prison? ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299618#Comment_299618 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299618#Comment_299618 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 16:35:38 -0700 agentarsenic
Because I don't transport my non-collection across international borders. Kachow!

In all seriousness, after reading the original article, I thought the guy was the one who had like bookshelves full of the stuff that got busted a little while ago. This guy, might have got a bad torrent or something. I wish I could find a link on the other guy, but I'm on a mobile, and it's him
I was concerned with.

This guy: http://www.japanator.com/man-arrested-for-manga-collection-the-comic-book-legal-defense-fund-will-take-the-case--8753.phtml

The comments section seems to take a similar stance as most of you, ie, drawings aren't a crime. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299625#Comment_299625 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299625#Comment_299625 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:22:56 -0700 andycon http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299637#Comment_299637 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299637#Comment_299637 Mon, 27 Jun 2011 22:14:25 -0700 razrangel
Taking legal action? Punishing someone? Withdrawing them from society for psychiatric attention? Telling kids to steer clear of them? Not allowing anyone to associate with them?

We should be specific if we're going to expect anyone else to toe the line. Otherwise any of us who've ever enjoyed a violent revenge movie should get hauled in to a Subcommittee on Potentially Bad Thoughts Inimical to a Well-Ordered Society. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299640#Comment_299640 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299640#Comment_299640 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 02:11:59 -0700 aike
But, as long as it all remains a matter of fantasy, this is part of what Art is for, to live out the things we cannot live out, to see the things we cannot see in reality. Here is food for thought: Why do we see a comic/book/film where someone brutally hacks children to pieces as one thing, but a comic about a guy raping them as a different boat? I can think of a number of comics where children (or adults) are shown being shredded to bits. Also, why is adult rape/violence less problematic than with children? Or, why is a fantasy of consenting sexuality with children not okay when showing rape and violence is? I'd say they all are pretty twisted and indicative of some latent psychological issues. Then again, any psychologist or psychiatrist can tell you that every human being on the planet has a good collection of latent psychological issues and is, at some level, pretty twisted.

I don't think the "shoot them all" mentality saves children from harm. I guess I am a bit jaded, too. I've dealt with a reasonable amount of child abuse, I know of several cases where an open support system would have prevented harm. (Yes there are some support groups, but being branded a potential pedophile is the modern equivalent of having leprosy - not even the doctors who could cure you will see you) I don't want to excuse those twisted individuals that harm children, beyond seeing that they are probably victims themselves, and yes, they need to be locked away - in the same way a murderous sociopath needs to be locked away, even if he cannot help it. But then again, check out the rape statistics in any country, underage and otherwise, and you will see that locking the fuckers up or shooting them is not a solution - there are just too many. There needs to be another solution. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299641#Comment_299641 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299641#Comment_299641 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 03:44:15 -0700 Paul Duffield
1) What if the style of a pornographic comic makes characters tend to look younger than they actually are meant to be as far as the story is concerned? (as is the case with a lot of manga - especially if you're not familiar with the style of the series in question).
2) What if a woman or man who is clearly sexually mature and otherwise indistinguishable from older characters in the comic is identified as under 18 in the story?
3) What if a woman or man who is clearly less sexually mature than other characters but is identified as over 18?
4) What if the style of a comic means that the only way to distinguish between sexually mature and sexually immature characters is the size of breasts and hips? Are depictions of small breasted, narrow hipped women in that comic then child pornography? (I guess this would also be more of an issue in material from Japan where a greater percentage of women are slight of figure).
5) A live action piece can dress a porn actress up as a school-girl for the purpose of make-believe, but remain legal if the actress is over 18. An equivalent sequence of drawn images might be illegal if it were clear from the script that they were a depiction of an underage schoolgirl, or they might be legal if it were clear that they were a depiction of an older woman dressed as a school girl. How should such a case be resolved?

Fiction bends the rules of reality, and ways of identifying reality for legal purposes crumble in a similar manner when discussing fiction. There is obviously a vast range of drawn material that might be considered a depiction of a minor in a sexual situation, one end of which deals with characters who are sexually mature, but identified as underage and is extremely borderline, and one end of which deals with characters who are clearly pre-pubescent and is very cut-and-dried. As other people have pointed out, it's impossible to tell where this case falls within that range without seeing the material itself, and without that certainty I don't want to make a moral assertion about this particular example

In general, I agree that anyone in possession of drawn images of a sexual nature in which the bodies of the characters depicted are clearly pre-pubescent must have a problem, and I object to such images morally - I don't think it's natural to find them sexually attractive. I do however have no illusions about human sexuality: it's perfectly natural to find depictions of a sexually mature woman attractive - and many people would be hard pressed to accurately arrange a group of women whose ages were between 16 and 20 on the basis of appearance alone - the same goes doubly when those depictions are drawn and the style must be taken into account. Furthermore, because sexual maturity doesn't rule out women who look young, or who are slight of figure, there must be a psychological borderline that every sexually aware individual has to deal with personally - doubly so for images that are drawn for the reasons laid out.

I also remember that even if someone has seen or owns a sexual image of someone who looks pre-pubescent, they have not nessacerily done harm to any individual. I question whether the purpose of the law should be to pre-empt the future actions of such a person - after all, we don't prosecute people for owning fictional depictions of murder, or even the rape of a human over 18, and I doubt there is anyone here naive enough to think that watching or reading that material makes you significantly more likely to commit either crime. I'm hard-pressed to think of a reason why that fact should change significatly for depictions of pre-pubescent sex, even if I am morally disgusted by it. However, moral-outrage plays a large part in law-making, and I've got no illusions about that or the reasons for it either.

These issues are contentious and extremely complex, and personally I would like to see more of the emotional fervour that tends to surround them being channeled into rational discussion in which no human being is considered to be less worthy of understanding than we would consider ourselves to be. For the most part this discussion seems remarkably progressive in that respect. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299642#Comment_299642 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299642#Comment_299642 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 04:17:45 -0700 mercurialblonde
I tend to personally err on the side of freedom, because it's too easy for me to imagine a situation where someone isn't deviant or criminal but owns some kind of art that is deemed deviant or criminal. Easier for me to imagine that than the notion that making harsh obscenity laws actually will curb true violent abhorrent behavior.

I would hate to go to jail because I own Lost Girls. Especially since nothing about that book turns me on in the slightest. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299646#Comment_299646 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299646#Comment_299646 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 05:45:34 -0700 William George On the topic of pedophiles;

The message should be "Don't do it, we'll help you."


Pedophiles are as "born that way" as gays and straights. If you claim you can cure their sexual orientation, then you must also be able to "cure" homo and hetrosexuality as well. Since we know these cures are really deep repression that won't last, we have to deal with the situation as is. Unlike gays and straights, consenting adults are not involved with their desire at any point. So you're left with the hope they can contain their desire to abuse children for the entirety of their lives. Or you hope they remove themselves from the world before they lose that self control and join the Catholic Church.

Obviously killing them off if they've done nothing isn't an option either. But that doesn't mean we should feel pity for someone jacking off to kiddy porn. And you're not going to convince me they're worth of pity either, so don't bother.

So, the message I'll gladly give is, "Kill yourself before you ruin someone else's life before it gets started."

On the arrest;

The problem with the current situation is that we don't know what the material actually is he was stopped for. Canada Customs is well know for being the dumbest branch of the Canadian government... which is saying something... So they could have seen anything from Yotsuba&!, to the kiddy porn mag called Lo, to an issue of Dragonball. So in this case we can't call the guy a pedophile until we know what he's been carrying around with him.

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt because, as I said above, Canada Customs are a collection of dumb assholes. But if he gets off on kids, he can rot. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299651#Comment_299651 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299651#Comment_299651 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 08:52:40 -0700 aike Pedophiles are as "born that way" as gays and straights.

That is a very unsubstantiated statement that is far from proven either way. The truth (much like any nature vs. nurture debate) is that a) there is far more at work than we are able to quantify or qualify and b) it is almost always a combination of both. Most actual cases child sexual abuse, at least to my knowledge and as far as anyone I have ever read has been able to prove, have had less to do with genetic predisposition, and lots to do with personal past, history, environment and culture. Like I said previously, in the large majority of cases of child abuse (perhaps even all) I have worked with, the perpetrator was him or herself a victim. Of course, also in the vast majority of sexual abuse cases (similarly to rape), the sexual attraction has very little to do with the actual act. It is about power, damaged self-image and a diminished capacity for distinguishing reality from fantasy. In virtually all cases I am familiar with, the actions were accompanied by massive distortions of perception and reality, splitting and projection, all baseline indicators for severe mental illness. Those are things that are treatable, though indeed perhaps not entirely curable. In the same way as a person who has suffered through torture, a schizophrenic, a paranoid delusional, or someone with a borderline personality disorder, they can be treated and lead good, productive, healthy lives - and wouldn't it be great if that happened BEFORE someone got hurt?

That is as much as I really want to say on the matter, except for two points in general on the whole outrage thing. We are too easily outraged these days. It prevents learning, understanding and actually solving problems. When the government gets all outraged at things, it is simply a protective measure, but as a public body we have come to expect and have fostered that behavior... I think, while because it is indeed a standard defensive mechanism it is sometimes unavoidable, we might want to be somewhat cautious of how we employ it. It rarely is constructive or helpful. Locking up an Artist (or anyone) to serve/appease the Outrage(TM) is a bad thing. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299682#Comment_299682 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299682#Comment_299682 Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:18:03 -0700 Jason A. Quest doesn't happen: by reading books with drawings that look like underage people having sex.

That's what this case is really about. Drawings. That did not harm anyone.

And a person who possessed them. And did not harm anyone.

Don't let the question of whether pedos are disgusting (and whether maybe this guy is one, or if someone just put too many panty shots in his comics) get in the way. Just like you shouldn't let the question of whether Nazis are evil get in the way defending the right of someone to have a book that may present them in a sympathetic light. And the fact that racism is vile and untrue shouldn't affect whether or not Birth of a Nation should be banned. Freedom of speech doesn't mean anything unless it also means the freedom of icky speech. Neil Gaiman makes this point better than I ever could (google it).

It should not be a crime to own a book that describes a rape. A comic book that explicitly presents the unique details and methods of a crime should not be suppressed. A movie graphically depicting the disembowelment of a human being is not banned, it's merely rated "R" and charged $9.50 per person to watch it. I have some rather uncharitable opinions about the people who enjoy watching movies of that kind, but I don't call for horrible things to happen to them because they have interests I find so... icky. I'm just glad they have splatterfilms to get their fix from. I understand the extra-special extra-defensive reflex that's triggered when children (or the idea of children) are involved; whether it was planted there by God or it evolved as an instinct or we develop it thru experience, it's deep-seated. But think about it: how is someone who secretly fantasizes about having sex with a 15-year-old girl (but never does it) fundamentally different from someone who secretly fantasizes about (and maybe openly plays video games about) blowing the brains out of dozens of people (but never does it)?

Child pornography (by which I mean: photos of real children being sexually abused) is – and should be – banned for the protection of real children... not to suppress the very idea of children having sex, the thoughtcrime of imagining it. Even the US Supreme Court – not exactly the most liberal-minded crowd of people you can find – supports this principle.

I don't know anything about this person who got arrested by Canada Customs except that he's apparently male and he's a U.S. citizen and he owns a laptop. I know even less about the comics that he was found carrying, beyond that they were "manga" (as if that meant anything definite). But I don't need to know any more, because it's enough to know that even the worst possible scenario that fits what he's been accused of - owning books with drawings that look like minors having sex - is not a threat to society. There is no victim. So there is no crime.

EDIT: In the interest of disclosure, I should add some information: I am working on a biographic novel that includes a number of scenes in which illegal sexual activity of various sorts takes place. It also includes scenes in which abuse (also various sorts) takes place. Some of those are the same scenes, some are not. I have an obvious interest in this book not being banned anywhere. But if it is, why should it be? Because it describes abuse? Because it describes illegal sexual actvity? ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299743#Comment_299743 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299743#Comment_299743 Wed, 29 Jun 2011 12:39:59 -0700 RenThing
$9.50 per person to watch it

Where in the nation are you that you can get into a movie at full admission for less than $10? *boggle*

Seriously though, you raise a good point. The distinction between a book that describes an incident, or a manga that depicts it, and a picture of a child being abused is that, in the one case, a crime was committed to produce the piece of media and, in the other, there wasn't. The ick factor is beside the point, the debate of what is and is not art is beside the point. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299777#Comment_299777 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299777#Comment_299777 Thu, 30 Jun 2011 00:29:31 -0700 James Cunningham Where in the nation are you that you can get into a movie at full admission for less than $10? *boggle*
$5 Tuesdays all day at the Nickelodeon, and there's not a single 3D projector in the entire place.

I'd have more of an opinion on the original topic if I knew what the comics were. There's too many things it could have been to cry foul on this one. ]]> 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299825#Comment_299825 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299825#Comment_299825 Thu, 30 Jun 2011 12:37:51 -0700 Jason A. Quest 'Manga' - Where is the line? http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299827#Comment_299827 http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=9973&Focus=299827#Comment_299827 Thu, 30 Jun 2011 13:07:01 -0700 HEY APATHY! I'd have more of an opinion on the original topic if I knew what the comics were. There's too many things it could have been to cry foul on this one.

I'm down with that statement, it's very difficult to make such an uniformed decision.


This whole topic makes me think about two contradictory and unsolvable questions:

If drawings don't really count as actually hurting anyone, how come comics and art ( & stories & films ect.) have such a huge affect on our lives?

and

When we censor anything are we not just sweeping it under the carpet, pretending that the problem doesn't exist?

It's an interesting topic all around, I am enjoying everbody's comments on this one and find myself agreeing with them all in one way or another, it's a tough one... ]]>